Should the Pope sell the Vatican and move to Jerusalem?

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pgd
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16 Nov 2010, 8:57 pm

NeantHumain wrote:
waltur wrote:
how was it, again, that the catholic church obtained sovereignty over the vatican? can you remind us?

The Fascists secured the Vatican for the Holy See with the Lateran Treaty.


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That's my understanding too. The small country of the Vatican was created by a business deal with the corrupt Fascist Benito Mussolini (buddy of the Nazi German Adolf Hitler). If the corrupt Pope of Italy winked at what was going in Germany, the corrupt Pope of Italy could remain a country - the Vatican. Technically corrupt Adolf Hitler said that the only good German Nazi soldiers were Italian Catholics with blue eyes and blond hair; that appealed to the corrupt Pope of Italy because it meant Italian Catholicism was the official religion for all of Germany. Hitler declared Germany a good Italian Catholic country - no questions allowed - complain and it's to the gas chambers along with the Jews. The corrupt Pope didn't care because he was getting revenues from the Italian Catholic country known as Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany; the corrupt Pope had already done deals with the Fascist Benito Mussolini. (Simplified explanation of the Lateran Treaty/the Benito Mussolini/Nazi Adolf Hitler/Pope of Italy connections) The whole thing was an intentional mixing of the politics of several nations: Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany with a single extremist religion (Italian Catholicism) which would be viewed as the official state religion for all of Italy and all of Germany. It was a trio of corrupt world politicians: two national leaders (Fascist Mussolini, Nazi Hitler) and one male only corrupt king for life - the Italian Pope. All three politicians promoted a concept pretty close to: no questions allowed, convert or die.



alaya
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24 Nov 2011, 5:52 pm

The Vatican City State, is the survivor of the papal states that in 1859 comprised an area of some 17,000 sq mi (44,030 sq km). During the struggle for Italian unification, from 1860 to 1870, most of this area became part of Italy. By an Italian law of May 13, 1871, the temporal power of the pope was abrogated, and the territory of the papacy was confined to the Vatican and Lateran palaces and the villa of Castel Gandolfo. The popes consistently refused to recognize this arrangement. The Lateran Treaty of Feb. 11, 1929, between the Vatican and the kingdom of Italy, established the autonomy of the Holy See.


Pope Pius has been accused of harbouring sympathies for the Nazi regime, most notably in the 1999 book Hitler's Pope, by British author John Cornwell.
But other Catholic and Jewish historians contend that in fact Pius was loathed by the Nazis for speaking out about the Holocaust and for behind-the-scenes efforts to save Italian Jews who otherwise would have been sent to death camps.

Pope Pius XII told senior bishops that should he be arrested by the Nazis, his resignation would become effective immediately, paving the way for a successor, according to documents in the Vatican's Secret Archives.
The bishops would then be expected to flee to a safe country – probably neutral Portugal – where they would re-establish the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church and appoint a new Pontiff.
That Hitler considered kidnapping the Pope has been documented before, but this is the first time that details have emerged of the Vatican's strategy should the Nazis carry out the plan.

Source Read telegraph Thursday 24 November 2011

(Sorry was not allowed to send web link with it )



NeantHumain
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25 Nov 2011, 4:44 pm

The most ancient title of the Pope is Bishop of Rome. Through ecclesiastical politics, the popes raised their see to preeminent among the church, disputing the primacy with the patriarch of Constantinople; the Patriarchate of Jerusalem fell behind in rank. The Patriarch of Alexandria is also sometimes referred to as Pope. For a while, the Roman pope was resident in Avignon, but the Papacy is closely tied to being Bishop of Rome.



1000Knives
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25 Nov 2011, 5:36 pm

pgd wrote:
NeantHumain wrote:
waltur wrote:
how was it, again, that the catholic church obtained sovereignty over the vatican? can you remind us?

The Fascists secured the Vatican for the Holy See with the Lateran Treaty.


---

That's my understanding too. The small country of the Vatican was created by a business deal with the corrupt Fascist Benito Mussolini (buddy of the Nazi German Adolf Hitler). If the corrupt Pope of Italy winked at what was going in Germany, the corrupt Pope of Italy could remain a country - the Vatican. Technically corrupt Adolf Hitler said that the only good German Nazi soldiers were Italian Catholics with blue eyes and blond hair; that appealed to the corrupt Pope of Italy because it meant Italian Catholicism was the official religion for all of Germany. Hitler declared Germany a good Italian Catholic country - no questions allowed - complain and it's to the gas chambers along with the Jews. The corrupt Pope didn't care because he was getting revenues from the Italian Catholic country known as Adolf Hitler's Nazi Germany; the corrupt Pope had already done deals with the Fascist Benito Mussolini. (Simplified explanation of the Lateran Treaty/the Benito Mussolini/Nazi Adolf Hitler/Pope of Italy connections) The whole thing was an intentional mixing of the politics of several nations: Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany with a single extremist religion (Italian Catholicism) which would be viewed as the official state religion for all of Italy and all of Germany. It was a trio of corrupt world politicians: two national leaders (Fascist Mussolini, Nazi Hitler) and one male only corrupt king for life - the Italian Pope. All three politicians promoted a concept pretty close to: no questions allowed, convert or die.


Some stats about the Catholic church in WWII Germany.
8 Catholics executed, no Protestants;
3 Catholics sentenced to death, no Protestants;
47 Catholics sent to concentration camps, 2 Protestants;
99 Catholics imprisoned, 8 Protestants;
163 Catholics detained, 24 Protestants." (p. 159)
[from an article by Richard Steigmann-Gall, entitled "Religion and the churches" in the book NAZI GERMANY, by Jane Caplan

Quote:
"In December 1941, Protestant Evangelical Church leaders of seven regions of Germany collectively issued an official proclamation that declared the Jews incapable of being saved by baptism, owing to their racial constitution; to be responsible for the war; and to be 'born enemies of the world and Germany.' They therefore urged that the 'severest measures against the Jews be adopted and that they be banished from German lands.'


Just trying to balance things somewhat.

Anyway, relocating to Jerusalem would be entirely pointless, for the reasons said in this thread.

Also, the Pope would be encroaching on the Orthodox Church already in that area, and basically would start another crusade. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_ ... _Jerusalem Is the current Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem.

In Orthodox Christianity, there's Patriarchs, occasionally called Popes (ie, in Egpyt), but they only have control over their own small geographical patch, and as new churches get built, they become autonomous but in communion with their old "ruling" church, and then that autonomous church eventually gets it's own patriarch, then can start more churches, and do the same process. I like this idea better than a single central pope, and it's certainly better than an infallible central pope.