New swedish definition of rape

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LKL
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04 Dec 2010, 2:17 am

skafather84 wrote:

LKL wrote:

the current one is embarassing for the diplomatic corps, not the CIA or military.

Actually, within the cables, it's come out that the requests for all the biometric info and whatnot from diplomats came from the CIA so it could potentially embarrass them a bit.

I thought it came from Condoleeza Rice and Hillary Clinton, both in their roles as Secretary of State...?

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04 Dec 2010, 2:31 am

visagrunt wrote:

What a completely inane assessment.

Any party to sexual intercourse is free to withdraw consent at any time, for any reason. "Stop touching me!" is an order that no person is permitted to ignore. The question of whether or not a condom was used, and whether or not it broke is entirely incidental to the factual question of whether consent was withdrawn and the withdrawal of consent was communicated to the other party.

It also bears noting that these are allegations, untested in a Court. It is not the proper function of the police to make an assessment of the guilt or innocence of an accused. The function of the police is to present the evidence to a prosecutor, who must make a professional judgement about whether there is a reasonable prospect of conviction before taking the matter forward to trial.

The suggestion that Sweden is, "making it up as they go along," is simply inflammatory. "Rape," as it is conventionally understood at common law does indeed involve violence. In fact, rape has an affirmative requirement of penetration, which caused many countries to eliminate rape as an offence and replace it with the much more meaningful, "sexual assault" that allows for the criminalization of a broader range of unacceptable behaviour.

Perhaps these charges are a canard. Perhaps the women involved are liars. But it is not for me, you or the media to make that decision, but rather a court of competent jurisdiction.

Both women boasted of their encounters after the fact. That does not jibe with the psychology of someone who has been raped. But, you're right: the case should be judged in front of an impartial court based on its legal merits, rather than its political ones. Given that an international red alert has been issued on what is, at worst, a sexual assault case (which I do not mean to belittle - but, face it, it's never much of a priority for law enforcement unless the victim or the accused is famous), it's hard to believe that he'd receive an impartial hearing.

Assange requested, and was granted by the prosecutor, permission to leave the country; he has also since volunteered through his lawyers to video-conference and answer questions that the prosecution might have. Also IIrc he is suing (or considering suing) either the prosecutors or the plaintiffs (or both) for libel.

Vexcalibur
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04 Dec 2010, 10:02 am

Quote:

The suggestion that Sweden is, "making it up as they go along," is simply inflammatory.

You forgot to actually read the article:

Quote:

Proposed reforms of Swedish rape laws would introduce a test of whether the unequal power relations between the parties might void the sincerely expressed consent of one party. In this case, presumably, the politically active Ardin, with experience fielding gender equity complaints as a gender equity officer at Uppsala University, had her will suborned by Assange’s celebrity. The prosecutor coming as she does from a prosecution “Development Unit” could achieve this broadening of the law during Assange’s trial so he can be convicted of a crime that didn’t exist at the time he allegedly committed it. She would need to. There is no precedent for it. The Swedes are making it up as they go along.

You are right that if consensual sex becomes inconsensual during the act then it is rape. That's what the Swedish law is supposed to mean. However, the thing is that the sex Assange had with these women didn't become inconsensual during it. They just found a loop hole. If apparently you are having consensual sex with a condom and your couple declares the condom broke, then you can be accused of rape. And that's the charge they are giving him rape. Not sexual assault or harassment (I am not belittling them, but it is different). And there was no violence or anything during the fact. And the women boasted that they did it.

The implication is that if you have consensual sex with your girlfriend, using a condom. All it takes for her to accuse you of rape and destroy your public image is to, years after you broke up, just say that the condom broke.

Of course it is a very weak case. But just in case they are thinking of tweaking the law so that consensual sex when you are the boss of the other person becomes rape anyway. Worse, for that to work they would have to convict Assange of something that happened before the law was changed. That's the part in which the article says that the Swedes are making things up as they go.

Quote:

What a completely inane assessment.

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skafather84
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04 Dec 2010, 11:46 am

LKL wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

LKL wrote:

the current one is embarassing for the diplomatic corps, not the CIA or military.

Actually, within the cables, it's come out that the requests for all the biometric info and whatnot from diplomats came from the CIA so it could potentially embarrass them a bit.

I thought it came from Condoleeza Rice and Hillary Clinton, both in their roles as Secretary of State...?

And they were doing that to assist the CIA.

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MotherKnowsBest
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04 Dec 2010, 7:45 pm

You are all aware aren't you that the legal definition of rape varies from country to country? And that Sweden's legal definition includes things which would be sexual assualt in other countries? Also, if the reports are true, the charges are based on the fact that protected sex was consensual, unprotected was none consensual.

I'm not agreeing with the Swedish authorities at all, I agree with the earlier poster who said that this is offensive to women who really have been raped. I just wanted to explain how things are in this strange, cold land.

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04 Dec 2010, 8:39 pm

MotherKnowsBest wrote:

Also, if the reports are true, the charges are based on the fact that protected sex was consensual, unprotected was none consensual.

If the condom broke while they were having consensual sex, that doesn't all of a sudden change it into rape. Protected sex is "safer sex," not necessarily "safe sex," since it doesn't provide any absolute guarantees, and some amount of risk is assumed when you have sex with someone. And the woman in question did not seem to have a problem with it at the time. She's basically trying to withdraw consent after the act has already occurred and they have both moved on with their lives.

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LKL
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05 Dec 2010, 3:07 am

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 32,00.html

It appears that they have issued an arrest warrant, but have not actually charged him with anything.

Asp-Z
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05 Dec 2010, 4:48 am

Orwell wrote:

Inuyasha wrote:

Other Governments can accuse him of espionage or trafficking in stolen goods and those charges would be legit.

No, they would not. It would be a stretch to convict the leaker with espionage, but the media outlets who publicize information made available to them are perfectly within their legal rights. Unless you propose shutting down the New York Times, the Guardian, Der Spiegel, Le Monde, the BBC, and every other freaking news outlet in the Western world that is publishing and republishing these stories, you have absolutely no case for going after Wikileaks.

Exactly, which is why they had to create the fake rape charges.

xenon13
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05 Dec 2010, 8:21 pm

One of the women is probably a CIA agent. Her background strongly hints at it. She was kicked out of Cuba at one point for anti-Castro agitation.

skafather84
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05 Dec 2010, 8:46 pm

So the original prosecutor dropped charges and then, at the behest of a Swedish politician (American "diplomacy" at work?), they got a different prosecutor from a different city to pursue charges again. That's why there was the change in charges and what not.

"It is quite bizarre, because the chief prosecutor in Sweden dropped the entire case against him, saying there was absolutely nothing for him to find back in September, and then a few weeks later on – after the intervention of a Swedish politician – a new prosecutor, not in Stockholm where Julian and these women had been, but in Gothenburg, began a new case which has resulted in these warrants and the Interpol Red Notice being put out."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/de ... ng-watched

91
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05 Dec 2010, 8:57 pm

It is worth indicating that Sweden has the highest incidence of rape, anywhere in Europe. It also has one of the regions lowest conviction rates, at around 10%.

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skafather84
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05 Dec 2010, 8:59 pm

91 wrote:

It is worth indicating that Sweden has the highest incidence of rape, anywhere in Europe. It also has one of the regions lowest conviction rates, at around 10%.

Rape charges or full convictions? It seems like Sweden's rape laws are simply just ineffective and too open to excessive charges.

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05 Dec 2010, 9:24 pm

Inuyasha wrote:

I'm guessing it's Sweden's attempt to get him into custody before someone like the Russians end up simply putting a hit out on him.

nono. I do not think Sweden gives a rats about Julian's safety. This is Sweden's attempt to appease the USA by handing him over for extradition. If the extradition succeeded, USA would be indebted to Sweden. I do not think Sweden gives a rats about Julian's safety.

91
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05 Dec 2010, 11:21 pm

skafather84 wrote:

91 wrote:

It is worth indicating that Sweden has the highest incidence of rape, anywhere in Europe. It also has one of the regions lowest conviction rates, at around 10%.

Rape charges or full convictions? It seems like Sweden's rape laws are simply just ineffective and too open to excessive charges.

The statistic is from reported to conviction. Once they go to trial the rate is 80%. The number is up from about 7% in the late nineties. I think what you are saying is probably not the major factor though, since one of the major issues with any justice system in relation to that charge is one of reporting it in the first place. Also, similar laws to Sweden exist in many other European states. Here are the rates of conviction in similar countries: Finland's 17 percent conviction rate, Norway's 15 percent, Germany's 17 percent and Czech Republic's 22 percent in the same years. It appears that there may be other factors involved; such as police not interviewing suspects in one third of cases

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ruveyn
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06 Dec 2010, 9:18 am

Unless a rape is witnessed how can it be proven. If some crazy lady consents and later says she didn't how can her assertion be proven?

ruveyn

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06 Dec 2010, 10:05 am

ruveyn wrote:

Unless a rape is witnessed how can it be proven. If some crazy lady consents and later says she didn't how can her assertion be proven?

ruveyn

Fight marks and evidence of violence.

Problem is that both women in this case waited a couple of years to denounce it, so in fact there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever about this. It would in fact be impossible for them to actually prove there was sex at all.

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