How sharper than an atheist wit...

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91
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07 Dec 2010, 1:42 am

@AceOfSpades
I disagree. People who have conversion experiences often develop a much deeper sense of right and wrong. Many outright change their entire moral world view.

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Sand
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07 Dec 2010, 1:52 am

91 wrote:

@AceOfSpades
I disagree. People who have conversion experiences often develop a much deeper sense of right and wrong. Many outright change their entire moral world view.

This is merely assertive speculation.

91
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07 Dec 2010, 2:30 am

Sand wrote:

91 wrote:

@AceOfSpades
I disagree. People who have conversion experiences often develop a much deeper sense of right and wrong. Many outright change their entire moral world view.

This is merely assertive speculation.

Is it? That is a bit ungenerous. Here are a couple of easy examples.

Fr. John Corapi, from drug addict to Priest
St. Paul, from Pharisee to Christian (he violently oppressed Christians before his conversion)
St Augustine of Hippo (from Hedonist to Celibate)

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Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
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Sand
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07 Dec 2010, 2:46 am

91 wrote:

Sand wrote:

91 wrote:

@AceOfSpades
I disagree. People who have conversion experiences often develop a much deeper sense of right and wrong. Many outright change their entire moral world view.

This is merely assertive speculation.

Perhaps using three examples strains statistical data somewhat. I imagine a bit of looking might turn up three pedophiles amongst religious adherents.

91
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07 Dec 2010, 3:02 am

I wrote up my case for the resurrection the other day for you, so far you have yet to comment on it.

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Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
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Sand
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07 Dec 2010, 3:16 am

91 wrote:

I wrote up my case for the resurrection the other day for you, so far you have yet to comment on it.

You are avoiding the current conversation. I'm not fascinated by dishonest diversion.

91
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07 Dec 2010, 3:24 am

Sand wrote:

91 wrote:

I wrote up my case for the resurrection the other day for you, so far you have yet to comment on it.

You are avoiding the current conversation. I'm not fascinated by dishonest diversion.

I do not exist to fascinate you.

John Mackay illustrated two kinds of interests in Christian things by picturing persons sitting on the high front balcony of a Spanish house watching travellers go by on the road below. The 'balconeers' can overhear the travellers' talk and chat with them; they may comment critically on the way that the travellers walk; or they may discuss questions about the road, how it can exist at all or lead anywhere, what might be seen from different points along it, and so forth; but they are onlookers, and their problems which, though they have their theoretical angle, are essentially practical--problems of the 'which-way-to-go' and 'how-to-make-it' type, problems which call not merely for comprehension but for decision and action too.

If your a traveler, you will go looking for the answer yourself and then I will be more than happy to go with you.

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Sand
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07 Dec 2010, 3:32 am

91 wrote:

Sand wrote:

91 wrote:

I wrote up my case for the resurrection the other day for you, so far you have yet to comment on it.

You are avoiding the current conversation. I'm not fascinated by dishonest diversion.

Very,very shoddy. First you refuse to consider my proposal, then you try to change the subject to avoid answering directly, then you dismiss altogether that were were having a conversation and go wandering off into storytelling. I have no concern as to why you exist but it evidently is not to stick to the point of a conversation and perhaps agree there are elements in it that have to be considered. Run away and hide in your hole if that fascinates you. It seems to be your nature.

91
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07 Dec 2010, 3:36 am

I have provided existence proof of my argument. I see no reason to do more than that, you seem to have already made up you mind on the subject as well as about me.

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And the grave is not its goal ;
Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.

Sand
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07 Dec 2010, 3:44 am

91 wrote:

I have provided existence proof of my argument. I see no reason to do more than that, you seem to have already made up you mind on the subject as well as about me.

You asserted a generalization. Three examples do not constitute a statistical proof. That's all I indicated. Nothing radical or even indicating your generalization was not valid with the proper statistical research. Merely that three people going off the deep end says nothing about humanity in general. When you have the proper material I surely will be attentive.

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07 Dec 2010, 4:10 am

Sand wrote:

Here you go sand:

Paloutzian, et al. (1999) 'Religious Conversion and Personality Change', Journal of Personality

Shows a positive correlation between religious conversion and major values shifts. Pg 1056

'We see compelling evidence that certain aspects of personality change and that they change in most profound ways in the context of religious conversion' Pg 1073

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Life is real ! Life is earnest!
And the grave is not its goal ;
Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.

Sand
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07 Dec 2010, 4:41 am

91 wrote:

Sand wrote:

Sounds reasonable. Now is that a generalization or is it merely a study of a few individuals? There seems to be quite a lot of instances of people who do not deny their religion but nevertheless are deeply involved in immoral and other nefarious operations. Do you deny that?

91
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07 Dec 2010, 5:14 am

Sand wrote:

Its a study of studies. Also I do not deny that at all. People who are religious do commit terrible crimes. As a Christian, this fact is compatible with the belief that humans are fallen creatures. Any denial of an ideologies capacity to commit sin falls under the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy.

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Life is real ! Life is earnest!
And the grave is not its goal ;
Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.

Sand
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07 Dec 2010, 5:33 am

91 wrote:

Sand wrote:

Since religious people do commit terrible crimes (whatever "fallen" may mean) what kind of evaluation can I make as to the efficacy of religion as a factor in civilizing people. The most religious, the fanatics, seem to be most disposed to ignore and violate basic decency.

Awesomelyglorious
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07 Dec 2010, 8:09 am

Sand wrote:

Empathy involves the ability of someone to consider any maltreatment of another as a maltreatment of one's self. Justice is clearly covered there.

Not really. Justice is more abstract and impersonal than empathy. Trying to say that the two notions are the same is false. This is clearly seen in the existence of people with strong senses of justice, and weaker senses of empathy. This is also seen with the "justice-mercy" schism, in that the two notions are sometimes regarded as being in conflict with each other, while mercy is clearly more of an attribute of empathy. What then would justice be?

Look, honestly, there is no sensible reason why we should pretend an intuition of ours is a super-intuition, one that handles everything. Rather, "conscience" given that it is the result of multiple intuitions was a better term, and the one I really intended.

91
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07 Dec 2010, 9:15 am

Sand wrote:

Many religions are clearly not civilizing forces. Some can lay claim to this to an extent. It is however, not the primary job of religion to civilize people. In my view the role of religion is to provide man with the salvation he needs. Everything else is just a bonus as far as I am concerned.

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Life is real ! Life is earnest!
And the grave is not its goal ;
Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.

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