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MasterJedi
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25 Dec 2010, 6:59 pm

The Vatican - gilded in gold and jewels yet there are starving children in the lands in which he kisses the tarmac.



aghogday
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25 Dec 2010, 8:54 pm

I understand the maladaptive consequences of religion throughout the centuries. I don't think we necessarily have a religious instinct, but there are two things I believe most people need, and in my opinion are human instincts: one is the need to establish order in the world and the other is the need to be connected to others as a social animal. Whatever the common belief is what binds the people together. For thousands of years religion is the cultural adaptation that humans developed to serve these needs.

Today we have accumulated the knowledge that allow us to be educated to understand the nature of our world, so religion is not as necessary in the modern world to fulfill the need to see order in the world. I think that regardless of the particular beliefs of religions today they still serve the same purpose in social connectivity that they always have.

While some of us do not have a strong need for social connection, most people do, and the quality of mental health is affected by it. I have known many older people that continue to stay connected through their religion long after their careers end and their biological families are gone.

In the last 5,000 years what other systematical adaptation could humans of come up with besides religion to accommodate the need for an understanding of order and to maintain the social connections necessary for civilization and ultimately survival?

As long as religion keeps groups of people socially connected it supports human survival. The beliefs may seem like strange illusions that sometimes result in destructive consequences to many of us, but the value that an individual can receive from the social connection it provides can be priceless to that individual.



Philologos
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25 Dec 2010, 10:00 pm

Comment just two points:

1. we really need a working and shared vocabulary that distinguishes

a. the set of truths / delusions that defines a belief system

b.the set of rituals / cultic behaviors that expresses that belief system

c. the organization / hierarchic structure that arises to organize / direct the liturgical work.

While the three obviously interrelate, and can in some cases be hard to untangle, using "religion" to cover the whole shebang makes it hard to talk clearly.

2. I for one get little out of the social aspect of "religion" - if anything the socialization involved is problematic [I still have about 6 - 8 as practical upper limit for comfortable social interaction].

Which is not to say it may not be a positive in society as a whole.



aghogday
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26 Dec 2010, 2:28 am

Philologos wrote:
Comment just two points:

1. we really need a working and shared vocabulary that distinguishes

a. the set of truths / delusions that defines a belief system

b.the set of rituals / cultic behaviors that expresses that belief system

c. the organization / hierarchic structure that arises to organize / direct the liturgical work.

While the three obviously interrelate, and can in some cases be hard to untangle, using "religion" to cover the whole shebang makes it hard to talk clearly.

2. I for one get little out of the social aspect of "religion" - if anything the socialization involved is problematic [I still have about 6 - 8 as practical upper limit for comfortable social interaction].

Which is not to say it may not be a positive in society as a whole.



I understand the need to describe the a,b, & c components of "religion", if I am comparing religions, but I am suggesting there are common human needs behind the expression of all religions that ensure its continued existense.

I have similiar issues with the social aspect of religion, but it helps fill the need for connectivity throughout many peoples lives. The value of the social connectivity religion provides can be measured empirically. Social connectivity is scientifically measured as the number one factor in the level of happiness among humans; it is vital to human survival. I think this is the aspect of religion that makes it positive as a whole. In my opinion the divisive factors of religion, pale in comparison.



Sand
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26 Dec 2010, 3:01 am

aghogday wrote:
Philologos wrote:
Comment just two points:

1. we really need a working and shared vocabulary that distinguishes

a. the set of truths / delusions that defines a belief system

b.the set of rituals / cultic behaviors that expresses that belief system

c. the organization / hierarchic structure that arises to organize / direct the liturgical work.

While the three obviously interrelate, and can in some cases be hard to untangle, using "religion" to cover the whole shebang makes it hard to talk clearly.

2. I for one get little out of the social aspect of "religion" - if anything the socialization involved is problematic [I still have about 6 - 8 as practical upper limit for comfortable social interaction].

Although I am quite happy not to be a member of any group or association other than discussion groups on the net, there are many ways humans can cooperate and enjoy each other's company without the necessity to cling together with common superstitions and exclusive thoughts about others not in the group.

Which is not to say it may not be a positive in society as a whole.



I understand the need to describe the a,b, & c components of "religion", if I am comparing religions, but I am suggesting there are common human needs behind the expression of all religions that ensure its continued existense.

I have similiar issues with the social aspect of religion, but it helps fill the need for connectivity throughout many peoples lives. The value of the social connectivity religion provides can be measured empirically. Social connectivity is scientifically measured as the number one factor in the level of happiness among humans; it is vital to human survival. I think this is the aspect of religion that makes it positive as a whole. In my opinion the divisive factors of religion, pale in comparison.