Why most Asperger don't believe in free will?

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ryan93
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16 Apr 2011, 9:25 pm

phil777 wrote:

We naturally have free will, but our choices are culturally conditionned. <.<

Just because something feels like it's true doesn't make it so. Neural activity being biochemical, and "free will" are incompatible. People are a product of their environment, and genetics, and nothing more.

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AceOfSpades
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16 Apr 2011, 10:12 pm

ryan93 wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

ryan93 wrote:

LibertarianAS wrote:

Only a handful of prominent historical figures denied the existence of free will (at least for non-religious reasons). Yet a disproportionately large number of them had many symptoms associated with the autism spectrum.

Einstein, Russell, and Spinoza (ERS) each denied the existence of free will, and each has been repeatedly “diagnosed” with Asperger’s Syndrome.

One of my best friends(he is a Psychologists student) also conducted a preliminary study with 192 random subjects outside the local public library. He found that a composite score, averaging 10 primary features of Asperger’s Syndrome, was significantly correlated with incompatibilism. Self-reported difficulty with making friends was also significantly correlated with incompatibilism.

From my experience(both personal and online) I met only a very few people who believe in an"100% determinism theory" and most of them are....ehm the weirdest people you can think

I find all of that fascinating, if only suggestive.

Your friends experiment is interesting, but of course the subjects flaws/conditions tell us nothing of the validity of their beliefs.

Free will doesn't exist, because we are a collection of biochemical cogs that necessarily react. Most arguments against Free Will fall into the "gift of god", "non-material force", or "determinism = fatalism, so I'm just meant to disbelieve" category.

Of course, as a Scientifically minded man. I would like to have some experimental evidence showing that our decisions are made before we think we make them ourselves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQ4nwTTmcgs

This experiment leaves a lot of room for interpretation. It's no surprise to me that subconscious reaction is faster than conscious thought. It doesn't disprove the notion of free will since our subconscious reactions are associated with prior experience, conscious thoughts which became second nature, instinct, etc.

I'm not so sure. I get your point that subconscious = semi autonomous = deterministic and predictable, but what about if someone was trying to actively beat the machine? That would be well within the realm of MY decision. If I decide something, and someone tells me my action was determined before I decided it, then obviously the action caused the feeling of "decision", and not visa versa. I would call that "no free will", from a naturalistic point of view.

I should've phrased it better. What I meant is that subconscious reactions are the product of either instinct or thoughts/actions ingrained through conscious reinforcement. Also powerful experiences tend to ingrain subconscious reactions real quickly.

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17 Apr 2011, 12:33 am

"Why most Asperger don't believe in free will?"
Because they are idiots.

Free will doesn't exist though.

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17 Apr 2011, 1:29 am

LibertarianAS wrote:

As suggested, the study is only suggestive. But it still seems pretty plausible and I'd bet that it would be replicated if performed with more rigorous statistical methods.

I think the reason might have something to do with the significance of executive function problems in Aspies. If one has difficulty actualizing their "will" or harmonizing distinct attentional priorities in a concious fashion, than the illusion of free will becomes less compelling.

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techstepgenr8tion
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17 Apr 2011, 5:06 am

Master_Pedant wrote:

I think the reason might have something to do with the significance of executive function problems in Aspies. If one has difficulty actualizing their "will" or harmonizing distinct attentional priorities in a concious fashion, than the illusion of free will becomes less compelling.

It might also be that we've had more mysteries to ponder regarding what we can change, what we can't, if given a Christian upbringing trying to figure out why we're here if most of what we've been chastised for in life has absolutely nothing to do with the framework we've been given. Typically it seems like figuring these kinds of things out comes of necessity, as typically people don't want to see themselves as mechanizations of nature with zero control whatsoever and in that sense for many its not a particularly cozy prospect (unless your in a position where you could beat yourself senseless all day long over hypothetical missed opportunities of one fashion or another). I'm sure enough NT's are pushed to it as well but typically I would imagine its issues of estrangement from society, typically I don't think suffering from a medical illness would change your psychological outlook too much.

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17 Apr 2011, 8:40 am

phil777 wrote:

We naturally have free will, but our choices are culturally conditionned. <.<

that has not bee established empirically and and there is some contrary evidence.

Since we are completely physical our doings are regulated by physical laws.

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17 Apr 2011, 9:16 am

ruveyn wrote:

phil777 wrote:

We naturally have free will, but our choices are culturally conditionned. <.<

that has not bee established empirically and and there is some contrary evidence.

Since we are completely physical our doings are regulated by physical laws.

ruveyn

We're optimal outcome machines grappling with genetic frailties, neurological shortcomings, and yes - survival, basic needs, complex needs, and the demands/constraints placed on us by other people. In some odd alternate universe where one could be free of all that and not have to hunt for food, there still would be no free will as a cocktail of hormones and chemicals would still be dictating to us what we wish to do and what we don't wish to do. Without that we'd even be in worse shape.

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ryan93
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17 Apr 2011, 9:25 am

I think it's just anthropocentric arrogance that makes people hold onto free will when tested; why would we be exempt from physical laws? It's abundantly clear we are not.

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JakobVirgil
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17 Apr 2011, 9:40 am

ryan93 wrote:

I think it's just anthropocentric arrogance that makes people hold onto free will when tested; why would we be exempt from physical laws? It's abundantly clear we are not.

I think in the complex chemo-electrical soup that is our thoughts
something can emerge that for all practical purposes is free will.

does determinism = predictiblity when the system is chaotic?

if not then the human mind (and the minds of others) is a chaotic
yet technically deterministic system.

we can treat this as free-will if we want to.

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ryan93
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17 Apr 2011, 9:54 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

ryan93 wrote:

I think it's just anthropocentric arrogance that makes people hold onto free will when tested; why would we be exempt from physical laws? It's abundantly clear we are not.

I used to take that position, until Orwell rightly pointed out that "subjective free will" is really twisting the idea of free will beyond recognition. Sure, determinism doesn't imply fatalism or predictability.

I think that the "call complexity free will" argument is weak because it is very wrong, and treated as such when applied elsewhere. Is the rustling of leaves in a tree as the wind passes through ungoverned by laws, because we are not resourceful enough to apply them?

For pragmatic reasons, we act as if our will is "free", so in a sense we do label complexity freedom. But that does not imply that the will isn't free. Free Will isn't free, no matter what definition twisting we try to do. The will follows laws.

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b9
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17 Apr 2011, 10:00 am

i never paid anything for my will power. i was born with it.
i always will do what i will, and i will never do what i am not inclined naturally to do. so what i "will" will i do.

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17 Apr 2011, 10:06 am

b9 wrote:

i never paid anything for my will power. i was born with it.
i always will do what i will, and i will never do what i am not inclined naturally to do. so what i "will" will i do.

The possession of a Will is undisputable. The "Free" part is pretty much non-existent, according to Science.

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techstepgenr8tion
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17 Apr 2011, 10:12 am

ryan93 wrote:

b9 wrote:

i never paid anything for my will power. i was born with it.
i always will do what i will, and i will never do what i am not inclined naturally to do. so what i "will" will i do.

The possession of a Will is undisputable. The "Free" part is pretty much non-existent, according to Science.

We're vectors, 'freedom' is simply the liberty to follow your internal vector without too many stumbling blocks presented by other humans. Obviously though, our vectors are given to us and essentially the sum of our genes, upbringings, experiences, and how all of these things tie out to render the shape our motivational core.

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ryan93
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17 Apr 2011, 10:14 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

ryan93 wrote:

b9 wrote:

i never paid anything for my will power. i was born with it.
i always will do what i will, and i will never do what i am not inclined naturally to do. so what i "will" will i do.

The possession of a Will is undisputable. The "Free" part is pretty much non-existent, according to Science.

I like the analogy. I always though of our lack of free will in term of Vectors since I seen Donnie Darko

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b9
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17 Apr 2011, 10:15 am

ryan93 wrote:

b9 wrote:

i never paid anything for my will power. i was born with it.
i always will do what i will, and i will never do what i am not inclined naturally to do. so what i "will" will i do.

The possession of a Will is undisputable. The "Free" part is pretty much non-existent, according to Science.

i am sorry but the meaning of "will" carries with it the notion of freedom to act. one does not have to add the word "free" to "will" because that is obviously a tautology.

ryan93
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17 Apr 2011, 10:40 am

b9 wrote:

ryan93 wrote:

b9 wrote:

i never paid anything for my will power. i was born with it.
i always will do what i will, and i will never do what i am not inclined naturally to do. so what i "will" will i do.

The possession of a Will is undisputable. The "Free" part is pretty much non-existent, according to Science.

i am sorry but the meaning of "will" carries with it the notion of freedom to act. one does not have to add the word "free" to "will" because that is obviously a tautology.

Human action is completely determined by Biochemistry. Biochemistry is deterministic. However, people feel as though they have agency and ownership over their actions.

The definition for Will is:

Quote:

Intend, desire, or wish (something) to happen

Make or try to make (someone) do something or (something) happen by the exercise of mental power

Neither require any freedom, so my usage was valid.

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