The Universal value and your unique value
If we take your theory as the whole process, can we say that your unique value is a narrower form subordinate the Universal Value?
I still have doubt on this point.
"Subordinate".....Hmmmmm. Then, at the heart of everything would be "best quality."
Best quality:
Our unique value would be subordinate to the universal value - "society" or our contract agreement living in a particular segment of society--"appraiser relativism vs. agent relativism." We curb our desire , to match the demands of society, otherwise one would do as they want as an individual standard, breaking the agreement-- society couldn't function in this.
I don't know if this what you are after?
Yes..
I am thinking what is more benificial to us... And how do we apply them to practise, and achieve things in the real world...
I tried to make the question easier. Thus the question above comes.
But your point may much easier to discuss and practise than this one...
I am thinking what is more benificial to us... And how do we apply them to practise, and achieve things in the real world...
I tried to make the question easier. Thus the question above comes.
But your point may much easier to discuss and practise than this one...
To us, meaning the thinking kind?...... To maintain a little sanity from being "different" and isolated? - I'm unaware of anything universal here that works for all.
I'd just say that my "achievements" are simply having enough in a material way to be comfortable, enabling myself to read ,think , and have a little fun with my hobbies.. So far so good..... Ahhh, but one universal truth: We( mankind) all need bread and circuses, but ours - the thinking lots' kind - M.O., is just somewhat different.
I help where the local need is, in my own way, and apply the Golden Rule.
I'm not a Bertrand Russell , so changing anything in the world is out, at least for myself.
To us, meaning the thinking kind?...... To maintain a little sanity from being "different" and isolated? - I'm unaware of anything universal here that works for all.
I'd just say that my "achievements" are simply having enough in a material way to be comfortable, enabling myself to read ,think , and have a little fun with my hobbies.. So far so good..... Ahhh, but one universal truth: We( mankind) all need bread and circuses, but ours - the thinking lots' kind - M.O., is just somewhat different.
I help where the local need is, in my own way, and apply the Golden Rule.
I'm not a Bertrand Russell , so changing anything in the world is out, at least for myself.
Given this set of descriptors, it would appear very like your "us" is as close to my "us" and that of the Inner Circle as need be. I note you to be knit into the OTHER list.
To us, meaning the thinking kind?...... To maintain a little sanity from being "different" and isolated? - I'm unaware of anything universal here that works for all.
I'd just say that my "achievements" are simply having enough in a material way to be comfortable, enabling myself to read ,think , and have a little fun with my hobbies.. So far so good..... Ahhh, but one universal truth: We( mankind) all need bread and circuses, but ours - the thinking lots' kind - M.O., is just somewhat different.
I help where the local need is, in my own way, and apply the Golden Rule.
I'm not a Bertrand Russell , so changing anything in the world is out, at least for myself.
Given this set of descriptors, it would appear very like your "us" is as close to my "us" and that of the Inner Circle as need be. I note you to be knit into the OTHER list.
In this forum that is a compliment.
My reply was un-romantic, but what other things do thinking types do to engage themselves? - writing, blogging could be one - painting - or posting and sharing ideas on forums could be another. I've noticed similar boards are full of thinking folks, and their outlets are this.
They can have interesting careers, but the isolation is present. We need ideas to play with -- not the local eye glazing gossip -" did you know that so and so did that."
There is nobody present for engagement of themselves.
their outlets are this.
They can have interesting careers, but the isolation is present. We need ideas to play with -- not the local eye glazing gossip -" did you know that so and so did that."
There is nobody present for engagement of themselves.
Yes. I can understand. I think you reached a new, deeper point - you may just expressed the existance in another way, but I can appriaciate that.
Thank you very much.
Would you like to discuss any further, please?
'absolute' is impossible, even for itself.
In the widest range, for things we can ever achieve.. How much engagement on secular things can be enough-that can make you 'successful' in a secular sense?(specific things then comes). While if we can also thinking freely and independently- I have no answer.
Universal value. How much, and how deep do human beings have appriciated it? And how can we prove that it is not merely futile?
How about our(reach the deepest core and thing with the best quality thus comes) own unique value in the same question?
Is there a constant conflict, or one can eventually surpass the another?
Or it has never been so, if in a deeper, higher sense?
You're working me
Those are difficult but good questions.
A little abstract piece:
Better overall value: Education or an attainment of accurate knowledge, enables a "higher quality." For example, in the past, there was a shift in thinking on slave ownership: This prior behavior stemmed from a lack of anthropological knowledge,( in that we are all the same); they were thought of as inferior or not of the same kind - (as animals) - thus empowering this travesty. Not thought of as being of the "same kind," inhibited empathy, thus, this immoral travesty.
Modern application: Elimination of ignorance, such as "world fundie violence," would come through education, (as one way) - better universal value - better unique value.
O, thank you so much!
How did you work it out with the first example?
I am surprised, I am amazed.
Thank you for saying that
I suddenly understood it now!
Let us think about it in some other ways
Let's inspire each other ! !
Please give me a question.. and I will give you one or some, as long as I can think out one!
For a better, healthier brain!! !! ![]()
Last edited by metaphysics on 27 Jun 2011, 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We seems cannot do anything else, can we?
And if so, what should we do? For improve ourselves...
Reading? Meditating?
Alas...
Why our theories can fade a little bit in our real life...
Value..? Or we just do what we like....
Theory and practise. The hardest question exists.
I surrender, for I can never find an answer for that...
How did you work it out with the first example?
I am surprised, I am amazed.
Thank you for saying that
I suddenly understood it now!
Let us think about it in some other ways
Please give me a question.. and I will give you one or some, as long as I can think out one!
For a better, healthier brain!! !!
Well, it was just a knowledge of the changing nature of "value" or morals. At that time, value, or empathy in this case, relied on correct knowledge. This knowledge changed these subjective values around to - "better." When the knowledge changed , then came empathy, and thus the immoral behavior (as we know it now) ceased. And as an aside this demonstrates that we don't have a built in abstract set of morals; this illustrates that morals or value arise from emotion or the ability or lack thereof, to emote to.
I once posted this in another forum, and the topic was about the subjective nature of morals:
Such ones were not thought of as ' being the same' or of a kindred.
There wasn't a guilty conscious to condemn oneself and this was due to ignorance in anthropology in this era. This inhibited "empathy" and hence slave owners were unable 'to emote' to a sub-human.
There couldn't be a moral calculus .
And in animals, once ,I saw a video clip of a hippopotamus swimming over to move/nudge a zebra swimming into sure peril.... a crocodile swarm.
The animal went out of its way to help a similar creature, moving it away to a safe course.
Imagine now, a hypothetical thought experiment to where a different creature is in that scenario,say a human.
I'd be sure it wouldn't go out there to save the human.... it couldn't incline it self in the same manner due to an inability in "empathy"....
The "evil" could only arise in the presence of a moral calculus.
Last edited by Mdyar on 27 Jun 2011, 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Universal values? an interesting proposition especially once refined to a universal set of human values.
To my mind the only trully universal values we share we also share with the rest of life on earth, they are the primary concerns of maintenance of the flesh and propagation of the species, the refinement of and expression of these concerns as a group are expressed and evolve as culture and vary from one social/geographical grouping to another and evolve over time.
The core foundation is that we are all fairly physically vulnerable but highly 'intelligent' primates and this means that we are nescasarily social and fortunately adaptive, our success until recently was founded on this communality of spirit and effectively altruistic behaviour - we had no choice as isolation meant death and those who gathered a 'higher reward' [pleasure?] from such behaviour repeated it more often achieving greater success for their group and so on, so this socialistic behaviour in order to succeed as an individual in continuing to exist and propagate ones genetic line could be seen as our 'core universal value'.
However different environments and individuals comprising the group led to subtle variations and divergences of expression, a difference in culture [that which is handed as knowledge from one generation to the next]. This has led to sub sets of values that attempt to serve the same origional core universal value but in different ways. Each of us has been raised within one of these subsets.
Now, things get complex, since the age of mass communication and increased mobility individuals have encountered a much more diverse range of 'cultural' stimuli. Certain personality types who are inclined to question and challenge the norms around them [an essential group who form part of the leading edge of thinkers and inovators] have since the age of reason given the question of the individual in relation to ones group much more thought, the freedom of the illusion of disconnection created by specialisation and abundance were certainly contributive to this 'libertine' innovation.
I have not read the thinkers you mention and I hope I have gotten the right end of the stick with regard the intention of this thread but assuming I have, what do I think?
As you can no doubt gather from my reasoning [here and in other posts] I attempt to maintain a very wide vision and am reluctant to accept absolutist or reductionist arguments over anything - especially this kind of question.
I see humans as first and foremost beings of flesh, each one managed by a conciousness or ego that by nescessity sees itself as seperate to everything around it as in actual fact the 'meat being' is. However as I mentioned this 'meat being' is vulnerable and has a primary urge to find a mate in order to procreate, this has led to the development of social behaviour which in turn has led to the exchange of information, inovation and the evolution of culture.
Now, not all of our cultural expression is merely functional, we are sensory beings and have developed great levels of intelligence which has led to art and abstract thought which has no nessasary collective requirements. It has by virtue of it's being non essential room for totally individual expression and appeal. This leads to individual or unique values in asthetics and behavioural modes
Does/do my 'unique individual value/values' take precedence over group or universal values? Not in any utilatarian sense. however where there is no conflict between by responsibility to the origional primary needs of my grouping and my individual freedom then 'do what thou will' shall be the whole of the law. Now this is no simple quandry, one must consider deeply any new choice and weigh it up against precedent and choose carefully, if there will be no victim then how can there possibly be any crime?
peace j
p.s thanks for challenging my brain anf getting it firing ![]()
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Just because we can does not mean we should.
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richardbenson
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The Universal value and your unique value are the same thing to me. I do whattever i'm doing with only answers not problems as solutions and its worked out well for me
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Winds of clarity. a universal understanding come and go, I've seen though the Darkness to understand the bounty of Light
ruveyn
Excuse me, sir, are we going to change our direction to dialectical materialism???
There is nothing dialectical about what I wrote. Just materialistic.
ruveyn
Everything you write is dialectical, slogans are your stock and trade.
peace j
_________________
Just because we can does not mean we should.
What vision is left? And is anyone asking?
Have a great day!
