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Fnord
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23 Nov 2011, 3:16 pm

Ragtime wrote:
So we're agreed: We all have faith, as I have shown that so-called "human knowledge" is faith.

No, we are not all in agreement. You are in agreement with yourself ... a typically Christian attitude.

Human knowledge is based on fact, experimentation, observation, any reasonable interpolation of seemingly unrelated physical principles, any reasonable extrapolation of known physical principles, and is proven by empirical demonstrations of those principles.

Faith is based on assumptions, suppositions, emotions, subjective belief in unprovable things, and is typified by convoluted rhetoric and a blanket refusal on the part of the "Faith-Filled" to ever demonstrate the alleged validity of their beliefs in a way that is both visible and practical.


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Ragtime
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23 Nov 2011, 3:38 pm

Gedrene wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Gedrene wrote:
Knowledge on the other hand is simply what humans ... interpret of the world which is correct.


"...which is correct"? But how do we know it is correct? Is there a 100% proof about any part of the natural world?

That which is "known" is believed.

Correct as in can be demonstrated as true in every case and not false in any case or as close to that as possible.


My point is that there is a veritable Grand Canyon dividing the "what can be demonstrated as true in every case and not false in any case" and "or as close to that as possible". What's possible for humans is infinitely less than what is simply possible.

Here is, I think, the equation that is emerging from this discussion:

belief + hubris = knowledge


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Gedrene
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23 Nov 2011, 3:45 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Gedrene wrote:
Correct as in can be demonstrated as true in every case and not false in any case or as close to that as possible.


My point is that there is a veritable Grand Canyon dividing the "what can be demonstrated as true in every case and not false in any case" and "or as close to that as possible". What's possible for humans is infinitely less than what is simply possible.
Here is, I think, the equation that is emerging from this discussion:
belief + hubris = knowledge

No it isn't. Belief plus hubris equals delusion.



DC
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23 Nov 2011, 4:13 pm

Ragtime wrote:
"Scientific fact" is the highest secular standard of determining truth. This while "scientific facts" formerly "proven" are "disproven" daily. (The logical conclusion: Fact is superior to scientific fact. Fact is what is true, while scientific fact is what finite minds temporarily think is true, until the nearly-inevitable time comes that they show it false.)

So, do scientists know truth? Discuss.

Do they live and work by faith? Discuss.

(Faith can be informed faith, as almost all faith is.)



Got any examples?

Give me a some examples of where a repeated, empirically demonstrated scientific FACT has ever been 'proven' and then 'disproven'.

You claim this happens daily so I would like a dozen examples please.



Fnord
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23 Nov 2011, 4:57 pm

I'd like to see just one miracle - one event that defies all known scientific principles.

Examples:

  • Spontaneous regeneration of all missing limbs and organs of every living military veteran the world over.
  • Enough rain in 24 hours to flood the Sahara to a depth of ten metres.
  • A major river (Amazon, Mississippi, Nile, et cetera) flowing backwards for 24 hours.
  • A new continent arising from the ocean within 24 hours - about 85,000 square kilometres in ground area will do.
  • Every nation at peace with every other nation on Earth.
  • The Sun's light is prevented from reaching the Earth for 24 hours - complete solar darkness.
  • Every person currently alive and over the age of 21 is restored to the age of 21.
Surely, none of this is impossible for an omnipotent God, right?


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mar00
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23 Nov 2011, 5:36 pm

Epistemology is very complicated. I think truth, for all we know, must be constrained. However it is true that human mind is susceptible to comforting fallacious illusions. The outcome of an experiment is a bounded fact and is all we can know for sure. Seems like a reasonable and humble position. Then tell me what are these Facts you are speaking of? Those that are equated to truth by default? How can you know anything if not for science? So my faith in Loose Canon, a Holy Book of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is hm...a Fact which is true? And not like scientifically true but for realz? How about a tooth fairy for a five-year old?



Vexcalibur
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23 Nov 2011, 7:35 pm

Fnord wrote:
I'd like to see just one miracle - one event that defies all known scientific principles.

Examples:
[list][*] The Sun's light is prevented from reaching the Earth for 24 hours - complete solar darkness.

I think this could happen without much supernatural things. Cue the super-volcanoes.


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ruveyn
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23 Nov 2011, 7:41 pm

Ragtime wrote:

belief + hubris = knowledge


Not quite.

Belief + empirical corroboration = knowledge.

Knowledge is justified true belief.

ruveyn



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24 Nov 2011, 6:59 am

GoonSquad wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
01001011 wrote:
You are confusing 'facts' and scientific theory. Scientific theories are tentative and there is no 'truth' in the naive realist sense.


Then why do scientists declare scientific conclusions to be "absolutely true"? I constantly hear them do this. It is apparently they who are confusing facts and scientific theory. Many scientists speak -- correctly -- in terms of finite knowledge. The more famous ones come forward and, with unmistakable declaration, throw the phrase "It is a fact that..." around in almost every speech they give in reference to science. What, are they simply unfamiliar with the phrase "We believe..."?


They do it because of the general dumbing down of society and because of the general hostility toward science, coming from religious fundamentalists, which makes science education a (unnecessary) battle for hearts and minds.


I say give your heart to Jesus, or Buddha, or Allah, if you will, but honor your divine gift of reason and reserve your mind for science!


Not all scientists are familiar with philosophy. And if proofs means 'demonstrated failure to prove to be false something that is falsifiable' then what is the problem with proven theories being disproved later?



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24 Nov 2011, 7:04 am

Ragtime wrote:
You're making an irrelevant contrast between utterly-baseless beliefs (insane ones) and logical beliefs, which you name "knowledge". I call it irrelevant because my OP has nothing to do with the random shoutings of the clinically insane, but rather the lifelong experiences of many devout religious people. The beliefs they hold are not random, and they are not without foundation -- as they are dismissed by atheists to be.


Because we don't call them 'clinically insane' (we should IMO) therefore what they believe is not utterly-baseless? :lmao:



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24 Nov 2011, 7:06 am

Fnord wrote:
Faith is based on assumptions, suppositions, emotions, subjective belief in unprovable things, ...

I don't agree. There is not even a thing to believe. Faith is just uttering a bunch of nonsense gibberish and call that belief.



Vexcalibur
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24 Nov 2011, 8:59 am

Topical:
Image


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ruveyn
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24 Nov 2011, 11:24 am

Ragtime wrote:
"Scientific fact" is the highest secular standard of determining truth. This while "scientific facts" formerly "proven" are "disproven" daily. (The logical conclusion: Fact is superior to scientific fact. Fact is what is true, while scientific fact is what finite minds temporarily think is true, until the nearly-inevitable time comes that they show it false.)



Not proved/disproved. Rather corroborated/ not corroborated. There is no way to prove a universally quantified proposition by empirical means over an indefinitely extended universe of discourse. To prove that all swans are white one must examine every swan the was, is, or ever will be. It can't be done.

The only thing we can be sure of is when a hypothesis is falsified. That is definite because it takes only a finite set of perverse facts to falsify a hypothesis.

ruveyn



Fnord
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24 Nov 2011, 2:22 pm

ruveyn wrote:
The only thing we can be sure of is when a hypothesis is falsified. That is definite because it takes only a finite set of perverse facts to falsify a hypothesis.

Do you mean something like These Biblical Contradictions?


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Vigilans
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24 Nov 2011, 7:42 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Topical:
Image


That is absolutely great! Thanks Vex!


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Beaux
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25 Nov 2011, 12:53 am

The world exists of probabilities. Nothing is certain, but it would be foolish to live life as if we know nothing. Still, letting our successes go to our heads seems to be a common problem in this world. . . :?