Christmas = paganism

Post Reply New Topic

I'm not that intellectually deprived anymore. I'm satisfied quite well with the books I'm reading.

Well lets take the subject of math. There are those who love it and those who hate it. No matter how many times a math lover tries to explain why math is so cool a math hater will roll their eyes and dismiss it as nonsense. However if a math lover were to teach a math hater how to do math in a way the hater understands eventually math will "click". The hater will finally understand WHY they love math. Similarly for those who study the bible and begin to understand it the bible will "click". Despite its size and ample use of metaphorical language throughout (esp in Revelation) the bible is actually a really easy book to understand. The basic theme that runs through the entire bible - from Genesis to Revelation - is the vindication of Jehovah name and sovereignty. God's Kingdom is the chief avenue by which this will be accomplished.

But you need someone who understands and loves the bible to teach you these things. Until that happens you will continue to dismiss it as nonsense.

I can sort of empathize where you're coming from, mate. I've been there and used to love reading the Bible (I've read the whole thing verse by verse more than once). But whereas there was a "click" back then, it has gone for good now.

It wasn't an easy feeling for me at first as this meant I had to let go of all the hopes and beautiful fantasies expressed in the Bible (and expressed by my own experience), but with time, I gradually realized that I can still be happy without a hope for eternal life, and that I can at least grow intellectually and learn to use my mind more effectively and creatively than by just relying on one particular source which can't be trusted to be from God.

You don't need to waste your time telling me about divine the Bible is because I'm past that stage now.

Redacted

Last edited by nat4200 on 19 Apr 2012, 5:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

That is true. But having a Winterfest (in the Northern hemisphere) is a lot of fun and it is very good for the profit and loss sheet. You are a party pooper and kill joy.

ruveyn

But at one point you were and somewhere deep inside you still are. That desire is unfortunately under layers of disappointments, which I can understand. Regarding the word of God remember Paul stated "For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful by God for overturning strongly entrenched things. For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God;" (2 Corinthians 10:4-5) and "For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart." (Hebrews 4:12) We are our own worst enemy. Years and years of disappointments can prevent us from continuing to learn the bible.



Perhaps the best way to start is from the beginning with a fresh set of eyes. As Yoda said, "You must unlearn what you have learned." This way you can build a brand new foundation of biblical knowledge.

I'm in no way trying to convert you or anything but "What Does the Bible Really Teach?", published by Jehovah's Witnesses, will help you understand what the Bible is really teaching. Reading the bible from cover to cover is one thing but having a bible-based guidebook will help make sense of it all.

You strike me as someone who thrives on learning things solo. With that said the publishers have provided the guide for free in HTML and PDF formats:
http://watchtower.org/e/bh/article_00.htm
http://download.jw.org/files/media_books/bh_E.pdf

The book is available to you anytime you wish to learn.

Cross out the bit in bold, and you get it right. I am deeply disappointed after realizing the Bible is not really from God as I once thought.

I mean, can you really justify in your mind God's Biblical atrocities against mankind (men, women, and children)? Stone children to death for the sins of their fathers? Slashing children to death by the sword? Why would a supposedly loving God command such things?

What about animals? What fault did they do? Why do they have to suffer because of us? Why did God make it in a way that we can eat animal meat for our pleasure and satisfaction at the cost of animals being harmed just for us?



Which I did. I feel much more relief now.



Nah, the WatchTower can't really help me here. I'm all about looking at things from a very reasonable perspective. No more lying to myself and to others.



Actually, I've learnt that, at times, experts can teach me stuff I couldn't know on my own.



Thanks, but no thanks. I'm done with cults and religion. One day, hopefully, you'll understand. If not, still good. We'll all have the same fate at the end of the day.

No problem. You have a valid question. Let me see if I can answer it.



The following took an hour and half to assemble. I hope it answers your question.

If you were handed a $20 bill how would know if it is real or fake? Would you study an endless array of fake bills? You'd probably say "no, that's a huge waste of time and not very practical." Instead time would be better spent studying a real $20 bill, this way I can spot a fake $20 easily. Similarly we can use the bible to draw conclusions and determine what is true and false.

In the case of your question let us visit Genesis 11:1-9. There it explains that after the great flood everyone spoke one language. Jehovah blessed Noah and his sons and said to them: "Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth." Noah's descendant Nimrod defied this. He instead wanted to control people and so he had gathered a lot of people to live in the city he called Babylon. He said, "Come on! Let us build ourselves a city and also a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a celebrated name for ourselves, for fear we may be scattered over all the surface of the earth." (11:4) This went against Jehovah's explicit instructions to spread out and cover the earth. When Nimrod died his followers continued to ignore Jehovah's command and even went as far as deifying Nimrod thus making him a god and the guardian god of the city of Babylon. (Genesis 10:9). Over time both Nimrod and his mother Semiramis were transformed into gods. So Jehovah finally decided to put an end to their activities by confusing the languages in order to force the people to disperse. (11:7) When they scattered over the earth they took their Nimrod worship with them.

What aspects of Nimrod religion were spread?

1. From Nimrod’s wicked city of Babylon demon worship in all its forms — magic, fortunetelling, prediction, spells, king worship, image worship, sex worship, animal worship, etc. — spread to the ends of the earth to corrupt most of mankind to this day.
2. The gods of Nimrod began to multiply into triads of gods or deities. In Babylon a temple erected to the god Belus is reported as having been surmounted by three statues, namely, that of Bel (or Bel-Merodach), his mother Rhea (Semiramis), and Bel-Merodach’s wife, Juno or Beltis (Zer-panîtu) — this according to the ancient Greek historian Ctesias.
3. The religion of Babylon taught the immortality of the human soul.
4. The religion of Babylon believed in a form of hellfire where Nergal was the god of the underworld and his wife Eresh-kigal was the sovereign lady thereof. On page 373 of The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Volume 1 it states: "After death the souls of men were supposed to continue in existence. It can hardly be called life. The place to which they have gone is called the “land of no return. There they lived in dark rooms amid the dust and the bats covered with a garment of feathers, and under the dominion of Nergal and Eresh-kigal."
5. Nimrod became a god, and Nimrod's mother then became the mother of god, and thus began mother-child worship

The above are what I would consider a fake $20 bill compared to worshiping Jehovah the Almighty God of the bible. If you take the five items above and list them in their purest form you get:

1. Demon worship including spirits
2. Triad of gods; polytheism
3. Immortality of the human soul
4. Hell or hellfire; basically a place for the damned to be punished for sins they committed in life
5. mother-child worship

Does the Qur'an or the Islamic faith teach any of these?

1. Jinns or genies are supernatural creatures in Arab folklore and Islamic teachings that occupy a parallel world to that of mankind. Together, jinn, humans and angels make up the three sentient creations of Allah. Religious sources say barely anything about them; however, the Qur'an mentions that Jinn are made of smokeless flame or "scorching fire". Like human beings, the Jinn can also be good, evil, or neutrally benevolent.

2. On page 18-19 of the book "Muhammad The Holy Prophet, Hafiz Ghulam Sarwar" it reads, "About four hundred years before the birth of Muhammad one Amr bin Lahyo ... a descendant of Qahtan and king of Hijaz, had put an idol called Hubal on the roof of the Kaba. This was one of the chief deities of the Quraish before Islam." Why is this significant? This Hubal was a moon god. In Mecca, there was a god named Hubal who was Lord of the Kabah. The moon god was also referred to as "al-ilah". This is not a proper name of a single specific god, but a generic reference meaning "the god". Each local pagan Arab tribe would refer to their own local tribal pagan god as "al-ilah". "al-ilah" was later shortened to Allah before Muhammad began promoting his new religion in 610 AD. When Muhammad came along, he dropped all references to the name "Hubal" but retained the generic "Allah". In essense what he said was "Since you worship all these gods but feel Hubal is the greatest of the gods my religion simply ignores those other gods and only recognizes Hubal as 'Allah'." And thus Islam transforms a polytheistic religion into monotheistic one. It is worth noting that while many non-Arabic pagans worshipped the sun - Romans called the sun Sol Invictus ("Invincible Sun") - Arabic pagains worship the Moon since 2000 BC. The crescent moon is the most common symbol of this pagan moon worship that dates back as far as 2000 BC. The symbol is the most prominently used icon in Arabic society today, most notably on flags of Arabic nations (e.g. Turkey)

3. Islam teaches that man has a soul that goes on to a hereafter. The Qur’an states: "Allah receiveth (men’s) souls at the time of their death, and that (soul) which dieth not (yet) in its sleep. He keepeth that (soul) for which He hath ordained death." (Surah 39:42, MMP) At the same time, surah 75 is entirely devoted to "Qiya-mat, or the Resurrection" (AYA), or "The Rising of the Dead" (MMP). In part it says: "I do call to witness the Resurrection Day . . . Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones? . . . He questions: ‘When is the Day of Resurrection?’ . . . Has not He [Alla-h] the power to give life to the dead?”—Surah 75:1, 3, 6, 40, AYA.

4. According to the Qur´an, the soul can have different destinies, which can be either a heavenly garden of paradise or the punishment of a burning hell. As the Qur´an states: “They ask: When is the Day of Judgement? (It is) the day when they will be tormented at the Fire, (and it will be said unto them): Taste your torment (which ye inflicted).” (Surah 51:12-14, MMP) “For them [the sinners] is torment in the life of the world, and verily the doom of the Hereafter is more painful, and they have no defender from Allah.” (Surah 13:34, MMP) The question is asked: “And what will explain to thee what this is? (It is) a Fire blazing fiercely!” (Surah 101:10, 11, AYA) This dire fate is described in detail: “Lo! Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment. Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise.” (Surah 4:56, MMP) A further description states: “Lo! hell lurketh in ambush . . . They will abide therein for ages. Therein taste they neither coolness nor (any) drink save boiling water and a paralysing cold.”—Surah 78:21, 23-25, MMP.

Muslims believe that a dead person’s soul goes to the Barzakh, or “Partition,” “the place or state in which people will be after death and before Judgment.” (Surah 23:99, 100, AYA, footnote) The soul is conscious there experiencing what is termed the “Chastisement of the Tomb” if the person had been wicked, or enjoying happiness if he had been faithful. But the faithful ones must also experience some torment because of their few sins while alive. On the judgment day, each faces his eternal destiny, which ends that intermediate state.

If Islam were a $20 bill what would you conclude regarding it authenticity based on the information above? Is it real or fake?

Worth noting since virtually all religions in the world descend from ancient Babylon and Nimrod worship then they all share slightly modified but common doctrines. You can tell which ones are fake and which one is real by what they teach.

As a side note Jehovah's Witness do not teach or believe in any of the five points above in any form.

Last edited by kxmode on 10 Dec 2011, 11:53 am, edited 7 times in total.

You should tell Shill O'Reilly this. Maybe he'll start supporting the War on Christmas after this!

Wow, I didn't figure Christians were all pagans.

So, if paganism is evil and paganism is the worship of man-made objects, then secularism and atheism is the only non-evil way. Good for atheists, I guess.

Christmas is a pagan holiday. If it looks like a ducks, walks like a duck, talks like a duck... it is a duck. Christian religions who celebrate Christmas are only fooling themselves.

Xmas is the Saturnalia co-opted by the early Church for political and marketing reasons.

Chances are the Jesus was born (assuming he existed) sometime in September around the time of the harvesting of the second crop in the Holy Land.

ruveyn

Kxmode is right about Christmas. When I was a Quaker, I didn't practice it because of all the reasons he listed.

Now that I'm an agnostic, I practice it because of family/social tradition and also because it's really dark and cold and I want to cheer myself up.

Of course christmas is a pagan tradition in disguise and hyjacked by the christians. Christmas is a celebration of the passing of the winter solstice and the rebirth of humanities saviour (the Sun).

The Sun heals the blind
The Sun walks on water
The Sun can turn water into wine
The Sun dies for 3 days at the winter solstice and is then ressurected on christmas day
The Sun dies on the southern cross

The three kings, or wise men, or magi, or whatever, are the 3 stars of Orions belt which are aligned with the bright star Sirius, which when at their highest point in the sky (approx midnight during winter solstice), point to the place on the horizon that the sun rises (or is born again).

It is all about astrotheology, about celebrating the one true pagan god which is the Sun.

Christians even made up a man called jesus to try to fool people into forgetting about their sun worship.

I was just gonna say.

Shill OReilly "defends" Christmas from a nonexistant attack from the "secular left" or from the 'politically correct" or from the Illumanatti or something, while the holiday really IS being attacked from the other direction by fundies. So O"Reilly ought to either turn his barrackades around to defend the holiday from the real attackers, or he should join forces with the attackers.One or the other.

I'm convinced that Christianity stemmed from some pagan ideas, but I don't see how itself is pagan.

There's a lot of irony when people of different faiths denounce the other's beliefs.

BTW, do JW's have some kind of quota for handing out Watchtower publications? About once a month I get awakened by the same group of JW's asking me how I'm doing and then trying to give me their magazine, and every time I turn them down. They leave with a disappointed look on their faces, and I think that will be the last I see of them, but no...It's almost that time of the month again.

Also, I used to work at a place where a guy was a JW, and I worked on Sundays so he could do his thing at Hall. But every time he was there, he had the break room table looking like a flea market booth with all kinds of literature. The way he fanned the magazine out in such a neat manner made me think he was a poker dealer at some point. No one ever took a magazine. Sometimes I read it during lunch, but I put it back afterwards.

I'm also related to some JW's. When my grandmother came out of surgery that was almost too much for her to handle, she was put in a nursing home. They took the 150 mile trip to visit her, and most of the family was there to capitalize on reunion, as we hadn't seen each other in some years. But at some point in the visit, they wound up dumping a half-dozen of these publications on her. The look on her face was the first half-smile I seen on her since the surgery But she was polite and took them.

What's with the special interest with the magazines?