Atheists that claim they are tolerant explain this
Fnord wrote:
The group is BASED in Wisconsin, but seems to have members in Texas.
Problem for the Atheists case is that depending on what else was put up with the Nativity scene, the US Supreme Court has already ruled that Nativity Scenes are okay.
Things like Santa, Reindeer, the Jewish menorahs, and Islamic star and crescent...
Granted courts have ruled all over the map, but this honestly could be considered an attempt by atheists to claim that the religious persecution of Christians is constitutional...
Vexcalibur wrote:
I'd prefer a Godzilla tree


Ooooo! Shiny!
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The mere fact that science may not yet adequately explain an object, event, or experience does not mean the immediate explanation should automatically default to a conspiratorial, extraterrestrial, paranormal, or supernatural cause.
http://www.malakoffnews.net/2011/12/06/ ... -nativity/
quote:
Quote:
Dear Commissioners,I am writing on behalf of a concerned area resident and taxpayer, as well as other Texas members of the Freedom From Religious (sic) Foundation (FFRF), who object to the erection of a nativity scene on Henderson County property. Freedom From Religion Foundation is a national nonprofit organization based in Madison, Wisconsin, with over 17,000 members across the country, including over 800 in Texas. Our purpose is to protect the fundamental constitutional principle of separation of state and church.
It is our information and understanding that a large nativity scene is on display at the Henderson County Courthouse and that it is the only seasonal display on the grounds (see photo enclosed). It is unlawful for the County to maintain, erect, or host this nativity scene, thus singling out, showing preference for, and endorsing one religion. The Supreme Court has ruled it is impermissible to place a nativity scene as the sole focus of a display on government property. See Allegheny v. ACLU of Pittsburgh, 492 U.S. 573 (1989); Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668 (1983).
It is our information and understanding that a large nativity scene is on display at the Henderson County Courthouse and that it is the only seasonal display on the grounds (see photo enclosed). It is unlawful for the County to maintain, erect, or host this nativity scene, thus singling out, showing preference for, and endorsing one religion. The Supreme Court has ruled it is impermissible to place a nativity scene as the sole focus of a display on government property. See Allegheny v. ACLU of Pittsburgh, 492 U.S. 573 (1989); Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668 (1983).
http://ffrf.org/news/releases/ffrf-asks ... t-the-inn/
Inuyasha wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
A courthouse lawn is public property, it has been financed in part by the atheists. So, keep your godamn religion out of public places, kay?
I wasn't aware that Wisconsin paid taxes to the state of Texas...
They would have a stronger case if they were residents of Texas, but as it stands right now, it looks more like something that they have no standing to sue in the first place.
Wtf are you on about Texas for, he was quoting himself (and you) from what I can only assume is another thread where you're whining about basically the same thing, except instead of Wisconsin it happened to have been Texas at the time. Jaysus
http://www.lc.org/resources/nativity.htm
Sorry but Nativity Scenes on Public Property are Constitutional, there are certain rules that have to be followed concerning them, but Texas arguably has the stronger case because Christmas is a National Holiday.
Blah blah blah constitution only paid attention when its at your convenience blah blah
I just realized that where I quoted was not from an earlier thread or whatever I was saying. I made a silly
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Last edited by Vigilans on 10 Dec 2011, 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Inuyasha wrote:
Fnord wrote:
The group is BASED in Wisconsin, but seems to have members in Texas.
Problem for the Atheists case is that depending on what else was put up with the Nativity scene, the US Supreme Court has already ruled that Nativity Scenes are okay.
But not when the Christian nativity scene is the only one allowed. And if you read carefully the ffrf warning , the city hall is not letting non-Christian nativity scenes. They are breaking the law.
Unleash hell to them.
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So, it is not a matter of a buncha Badgers baggin' on the Longhorns, it's one group of Texans trying to educate another group of Texans in Constitutional Law.
Fair enough!
_________________
The mere fact that science may not yet adequately explain an object, event, or experience does not mean the immediate explanation should automatically default to a conspiratorial, extraterrestrial, paranormal, or supernatural cause.
Last edited by Fnord on 10 Dec 2011, 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote:
Text of letter from Freedom From Religion Foundation:
PO Box 750
Madison, WI, 53701
608-256-8900
www.ffrf.org
December 1, 2011
Dear Commissioners,I am writing on behalf of a concerned area resident and taxpayer, as well as other Texas members of the Freedom From Religious (sic) Foundation (FFRF), who object to the erection of a nativity scene on Henderson County property. Freedom From Religion Foundation is a national nonprofit organization based in Madison, Wisconsin, with over 17,000 members across the country, including over 800 in Texas. Our purpose is to protect the fundamental constitutional principle of separation of state and church.
It is our information and understanding that a large nativity scene is on display at the Henderson County Courthouse and that it is the only seasonal display on the grounds (see photo enclosed). It is unlawful for the County to maintain, erect, or host this nativity scene, thus singling out, showing preference for, and endorsing one religion. The Supreme Court has ruled it is impermissible to place a nativity scene as the sole focus of a display on government property. See Allegheny v. ACLU of Pittsburgh, 492 U.S. 573 (1989); Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668 (1983).
In County of Allegheny v. ACLU of Pittsburgh, 492 U.S. 573 (1989), the Supreme Court held that a county government’s creche displayed in the county courthouse was an unconstitutional endorsement of religion. The Court stated,
“Lynch v. Donelly, confirms, and in now way repudiates, the longstanding constitutional principle that government may not engage in a practice that has the effect of promoting or endorsing religious beliefs. The display of the creche in the county courthouse has this unconstitutional effect.” Id. at 621.
The court further determined that the placement of the creche on the Grand Staircase of the county courthouse contributed to its illegality because “no viewer could reasonably think it occupies this location without support and approval of the government.” Id. at 599-600. Moreover, the Court found that the nativity scene “sen[t] an unmistakable message that [the county] supports and promotes the Christian praise to God that is the creche’s religious message.” Id. at 600.
It is irrefutable that the creche is a religious, Christian symbol. See Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. at 711 (Brennan, J. dissenting)(stating that the creche is a “re-creation of an event that lies at the heart of the Christian faith”). Allowing the display of an inherently Christian message on government property unmistakably sends the message that Henderson County and the City of Athens endorse the religious beliefs embodied in the display.
When the County allows this manager scene to be created, which depicts the legendary birth of Jesus Christ, it places the imprimatur of the County government behind the Christian religious doctrine. This excludes citizens who are not Christian – Jews, Native American religion practitioners, animists, etc., as well as the significant and growing portion of the U.S. population that is not religious at all (15% of adults), including complainants and taxpayers in Henderson County. As the Court said in Amancio v. Town of Somerset, “[To] insist that government respect the separation of church and state is not to discriminate against religion, indeed it promotes a respect for religion by refusing to single out one or two creeds for official favor at the expense of all others.” Amancio v. Town of Somerset, 28 F.Supp.2d 677, 681 (D. Mass. 1998).
There are ample private and church grounds where religious displays may be freely placed. Once the government enters into the religion business, conferring endorsement and preference for some religions over others, it strikes a blow at religious liberty, forcing taxpayers of all faiths and of no religion to support a particular expression of worship.
We request that, as Henderson County Commissioners, you take immediate action to ensure that no religious displays are on city or county property. Please inform us in writing of the steps you are taking to remedy this First Amendment violation so that we may notify our complainant.
PO Box 750
Madison, WI, 53701
608-256-8900
www.ffrf.org
December 1, 2011
Dear Commissioners,I am writing on behalf of a concerned area resident and taxpayer, as well as other Texas members of the Freedom From Religious (sic) Foundation (FFRF), who object to the erection of a nativity scene on Henderson County property. Freedom From Religion Foundation is a national nonprofit organization based in Madison, Wisconsin, with over 17,000 members across the country, including over 800 in Texas. Our purpose is to protect the fundamental constitutional principle of separation of state and church.
It is our information and understanding that a large nativity scene is on display at the Henderson County Courthouse and that it is the only seasonal display on the grounds (see photo enclosed). It is unlawful for the County to maintain, erect, or host this nativity scene, thus singling out, showing preference for, and endorsing one religion. The Supreme Court has ruled it is impermissible to place a nativity scene as the sole focus of a display on government property. See Allegheny v. ACLU of Pittsburgh, 492 U.S. 573 (1989); Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668 (1983).
In County of Allegheny v. ACLU of Pittsburgh, 492 U.S. 573 (1989), the Supreme Court held that a county government’s creche displayed in the county courthouse was an unconstitutional endorsement of religion. The Court stated,
“Lynch v. Donelly, confirms, and in now way repudiates, the longstanding constitutional principle that government may not engage in a practice that has the effect of promoting or endorsing religious beliefs. The display of the creche in the county courthouse has this unconstitutional effect.” Id. at 621.
The court further determined that the placement of the creche on the Grand Staircase of the county courthouse contributed to its illegality because “no viewer could reasonably think it occupies this location without support and approval of the government.” Id. at 599-600. Moreover, the Court found that the nativity scene “sen[t] an unmistakable message that [the county] supports and promotes the Christian praise to God that is the creche’s religious message.” Id. at 600.
It is irrefutable that the creche is a religious, Christian symbol. See Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. at 711 (Brennan, J. dissenting)(stating that the creche is a “re-creation of an event that lies at the heart of the Christian faith”). Allowing the display of an inherently Christian message on government property unmistakably sends the message that Henderson County and the City of Athens endorse the religious beliefs embodied in the display.
When the County allows this manager scene to be created, which depicts the legendary birth of Jesus Christ, it places the imprimatur of the County government behind the Christian religious doctrine. This excludes citizens who are not Christian – Jews, Native American religion practitioners, animists, etc., as well as the significant and growing portion of the U.S. population that is not religious at all (15% of adults), including complainants and taxpayers in Henderson County. As the Court said in Amancio v. Town of Somerset, “[To] insist that government respect the separation of church and state is not to discriminate against religion, indeed it promotes a respect for religion by refusing to single out one or two creeds for official favor at the expense of all others.” Amancio v. Town of Somerset, 28 F.Supp.2d 677, 681 (D. Mass. 1998).
There are ample private and church grounds where religious displays may be freely placed. Once the government enters into the religion business, conferring endorsement and preference for some religions over others, it strikes a blow at religious liberty, forcing taxpayers of all faiths and of no religion to support a particular expression of worship.
We request that, as Henderson County Commissioners, you take immediate action to ensure that no religious displays are on city or county property. Please inform us in writing of the steps you are taking to remedy this First Amendment violation so that we may notify our complainant.
_________________
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LKL wrote:
http://www.malakoffnews.net/2011/12/06/group-demands-county-remove-nativity/
quote:
http://ffrf.org/news/releases/ffrf-asks ... t-the-inn/
quote:
Quote:
Dear Commissioners,I am writing on behalf of a concerned area resident and taxpayer, as well as other Texas members of the Freedom From Religious (sic) Foundation (FFRF), who object to the erection of a nativity scene on Henderson County property. Freedom From Religion Foundation is a national nonprofit organization based in Madison, Wisconsin, with over 17,000 members across the country, including over 800 in Texas. Our purpose is to protect the fundamental constitutional principle of separation of state and church.
It is our information and understanding that a large nativity scene is on display at the Henderson County Courthouse and that it is the only seasonal display on the grounds (see photo enclosed). It is unlawful for the County to maintain, erect, or host this nativity scene, thus singling out, showing preference for, and endorsing one religion. The Supreme Court has ruled it is impermissible to place a nativity scene as the sole focus of a display on government property. See Allegheny v. ACLU of Pittsburgh, 492 U.S. 573 (1989); Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668 (1983).
It is our information and understanding that a large nativity scene is on display at the Henderson County Courthouse and that it is the only seasonal display on the grounds (see photo enclosed). It is unlawful for the County to maintain, erect, or host this nativity scene, thus singling out, showing preference for, and endorsing one religion. The Supreme Court has ruled it is impermissible to place a nativity scene as the sole focus of a display on government property. See Allegheny v. ACLU of Pittsburgh, 492 U.S. 573 (1989); Lynch v. Donnelly, 465 U.S. 668 (1983).
http://ffrf.org/news/releases/ffrf-asks ... t-the-inn/
Freedom of Religion in the 1st Amendment to the Constitution does not mean you have the right to use force to keep people from following their religious beliefs.
What’s so controversial about a baby in a manger? Plenty, if you ask the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF).
The group filed a lawsuit against the City of Green Bay over last year’s Christmas display with a nativity scene at City Hall. But the Liberty Counsel has claimed victory for Green Bay this week.
"The federal court gave the City of Green Bay an early Christmas present,” said Mathew D. Staver, Founder of Liberty Counsel and Dean of Liberty University School of Law. “Freedom From Religion Foundation is a radical organization that seeks to cleanse religion from America. The fact is that America has a rich religious history, and Nativity scene displays are consistently constitutional."
Judge William Griesbach dismissed the FFRF's case, stating that the group does not have standing to bring the claims, which he described as "so fleeting and slight that they do not warrant pursuing in federal court."
Judge Griesbach also noted that there is "a strong incentive for budget-conscious local governments to accede to demands from groups like the plaintiffs that government buildings and other property be cleansed of all signs and symbols of the country's religious heritage."
According to the Liberty Counsel, FFRF uses intimidation and threats of attorney's fees against local communities who take any action that might acknowledge religion.
FFRF’s co-president, Annie Laurie Gaylor, in a threatening letter to an Ohio town, derogatively referred to its nativity as a "shack" and derisively wrote that the display "jarred" the conscience.
The organization also unashamedly unveiled its "Imagine No Religion" billboards at Christmastime. FFRF is the most extreme, anti-religious, separationist organization in the country, claiming that its members are atheists and agnostics.
The United States Supreme Court has upheld government-sponsored nativity scenes when displayed in the context of other symbols of the Christmas holiday, such as Santa Claus, a reindeer, or a Christmas tree. The City of Green Bay displayed all those elements and even included wreaths with ribbon and lit candles.
http://www.thevoicemagazine.com/culture ... scene.html
City of Green Bay already won in a lawsuit filed by the atheist group in question. The Court ruled that the nativity scene was perfectly okay.
Inuyasha wrote:
Freedom of Religion in the 1st Amendment to the Constitution does not mean you have the right to use force to keep people from following their religious beliefs.
It does not. The Christians are free to have nativity scenes in their own property. They are also free to put up a nativity scene in the courthouse lawn as long as the space is given also to other religions and secular groups to put their own displays.
Once again, it is not your right to be a Christian that is under attack from the atheists. It is your imaginary entitlement to be the only religion in the US that is under attack.
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Inuyasha wrote:
Why is an atheist group in Wisconsin filing a lawsuit to have a Nativity scene in Texas taken down?
[i]Christian pastors in Henderson County, Texas, are fighting back against atheists who are demanding that a nativity scene located on a courthouse lawn be taken down.
[i]Christian pastors in Henderson County, Texas, are fighting back against atheists who are demanding that a nativity scene located on a courthouse lawn be taken down.
The Nativity Scene is on a piece of property paid for by all the tax payers in the district, some of whom may be atheists. The First Amendment was extended by the Courts to the States (and their subdivisions). No religion shall be established. If the Nativity Scene is moved to private property that atheist group will take no action.
ruveyn
Vexcalibur wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Freedom of Religion in the 1st Amendment to the Constitution does not mean you have the right to use force to keep people from following their religious beliefs.
It does not. The Christians are free to have nativity scenes in their own property. They are also free to put up a nativity scene in the courthouse lawn as long as the space is given also to other religions and secular groups to put their own displays.
Once again, it is not your right to be a Christian that is under attack from the atheists. It is your imaginary entitlement to be the only religion in the US that is under attack.
That statement would only work if other religious symbols weren't being allowed, and unfortunately for you other religious symbols are allowed at the court where the nativity scene in question is located.
Only reason your groups tend to have your "displays" thrown out, is because your group tries to put up things that are designed to offend other religious groups.
Seeking to head off a similar challenge, the mayor also invited the Madison, Wis.-based group to contribute something to the modified display, so the group mailed a sign that read: "At this season of the Winter Solstice, may reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."
Mayor Tony Court said he's yet to receive the banner in the mail, but he refuses to add it when it arrives. "It violates the First Amendment. It's endorsing atheism," he said, adding that the crGeche "is a statue. It's not a doctrinal statement."
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/12 ... z1gBJrSHrM
Cause I know you probably won't read the article:
Court said the Nativity scene is a "lovable tradition in this town" and defended keeping the anti-religious banner out of the display.
"It's offensive," Court said. "Nothing in our display challenges or puts down what others believe. I don't think you can say that about the banner the group is supposed to be sending."
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/12 ... z1gBK3BeWU
Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote, "The goal of avoiding governmental endorsement [of religion] does not require eradication of all religious symbols in the public realm".
This is not just about law, there are highly intolerant atheists out there as well, just as there are intolerant Christians. The case of a nativity is not open and shut, in fact I doubt the supreme court even wants to rule on it, since they had the opportunity to do so on the Mohave Memorial Cross case.
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Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.
91 wrote:
Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote, "The goal of avoiding governmental endorsement [of religion] does not require eradication of all religious symbols in the public realm".
It does not mean local governments can simply endorse a religion. The statements by the supreme court are clear. If they want very hard to put nativity scenes in public property, other religions and secular groups better be included too.
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Vexcalibur wrote:
91 wrote:
Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote, "The goal of avoiding governmental endorsement [of religion] does not require eradication of all religious symbols in the public realm".
It does not mean local governments can simply endorse a religion. The statements by the supreme court are clear. If they want very hard to put nativity scenes in public property, other religions and secular groups better be included too.
They are being included for the most part with the exception of the Atheist group that is doing its best to offend all the other groups.
ruveyn wrote:
The Nativity Scene is on a piece of property paid for by all the tax payers in the district, some of whom may be atheists. The First Amendment was extended by the Courts to the States (and their subdivisions). No religion shall be established. If the Nativity Scene is moved to private property that atheist group will take no action.
But how does a nativity scene on public grounds constitute the establishment of a religion? The nativity scene was not put there by an act of Congress no does it exclude non-Christians from the political franchise. No one is required to be a Christian to hold office or vote in the county. If they could show that the nativity scene was financed by state funds then I would agree with them. In that case it should be removed.
Telekon wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
The Nativity Scene is on a piece of property paid for by all the tax payers in the district, some of whom may be atheists. The First Amendment was extended by the Courts to the States (and their subdivisions). No religion shall be established. If the Nativity Scene is moved to private property that atheist group will take no action.
But how does a nativity scene on public grounds constitute the establishment of a religion? The nativity scene was not put there by an act of Congress no does it exclude non-Christians from the political franchise. No one is required to be a Christian to hold office or vote in the county. If they could show that the nativity scene was financed by state funds then I would agree with them. In that case it should be removed.
The Atheists are just upset that they weren't allowed to have their signs mocking Christians, Muslims, and Jews put up on public property. They are also mad that their flying spagetti monster (a clear mocking of Christianity, Judaism, and Islam) was similarly rejected.
