Anti-Semitism vs. Anti-Zionism

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You are incorrect.

More like 40 percent.

ruveyn

For most of Israel's history there were more Jews in New York City alone than there were in all of Israel.

Probably not quite true now, but the number of Jews in the USA is about equal to the entire population (Jewish and nonJewish) of Israel.

You know, for 5 years my next door neighbor in the duplex i lived in was an israeli jew. Descended from eastern european jews, near as i could tell. Shakes your hand like he's trying to stab you in the gut. He was from Haifa. Born there, living here on a green card.

And he's anti-zionist. Complains that he worries about his friends and family trying to stick it out in a war zone. Says it can't possibly be worth it. Every time something flares up over there, he calls them and tells them they are insane for staying in israel.

First guy I ever seriously dated was an Israeli Jew, and he was anti-zionist.

Saying anti-Zionist = anti-Semite is like saying anti-fundamentalist = anti-Christian

omg I agree with something you said. Hell must be experiencing a cold snap.

I resent my ethnic identity and heritage being coupled with a country which I've never lived in and generally have nothing to do with.

The current state of Israel is a political entity separate from that in scripture. It was created via leverage of christian scriptural perceptions to address the problem of what to do with European jews after WWII being Europe was no longer a viable home to many of them.

The culture of Israeli jews is Israeli and distinct from that of American jews, the latter frequently surprised to find how little they have in common with their counterparts in the middle east, and that any kinship feelings they have of them is not necessarily reciprocated.

I think the current conflict is a very unfortunate situation which has cost many innocent lives, both Israeli and Palestinian and I wish peace and prosperity upon Israelis and Palestinians both, as well as for the unfortunate individuals caught in similar conflicts in other regions of the world.

Global cooling?

im not saying there arnt anti semetic anti zionists because there are but the bulk of us are not anti semetic and i dont know anyone on the left who is an anti semite.
in response to artrats list:
2. zionism is a racist ideology and that it is used to justify apartheid proves it. i think equating jewish and israeli means equating jewish with being for apartheid which is offensive. also zionism arose out of a need for jews to have a safe place to be where they would not be persecuted but having jews retreat to one country to live in isolation from the rest of the world is not a solution- it is a surrender to racism.
3. yeah there are jews that call thmselves anti zionist. marx, trotsky, tony cliff come to mind. jewish anti zionists are not anti semitic but a couple of my comrades are anti zionist jews(theyre socialists so its "like duh") but they say that they get called self hating jews a lot and were rejected from their community for being critical of israel.
4. here we have "jews against the occupation".
5. goes without saying. not very jewish acts. most would find those acts repugnant.
7. absolutely. the only reason the west is supportive of israel is because it sees it as its watchdog in the middle east. i hear theres lots of oil there.
9. ditto. nationalism is divisive and fosters racism.

Zionism, as Hertzel conceived it was Jewish Nationalism. A nation for and of Jews. Hertzel came to his conclusions during the trail of Dreyfus in France and he concluded there was no future for Jews in Europe. The only solution was a country of their own.

ruveyn

I don't buy this at all. Western leftists instinctively oppose Western colonialism and its legacy, and they instinctively oppose the military, political or economic domination by peoples they consider similar to themselves of peoples they consider less similar to themselves. This is why British leftists supported the IRA. This is why leftists throughout the West agitated for the overthrow of apartheid in South Africa, and why they are so uninterested in the problems that have befallen that country since apartheid ended. And this is why many Western leftists oppose Israel: it is a legacy of British colonialism, and a nationalist state, formed after immigrants/colonisers from Europe defeated the militarily weaker Arab population, many of whom were subsequently ethnically cleansed from the area that was once their home.

On the other hand, the anti-Zionist sentiment that exists on the right is mainly motivated by opposition to the perceived influence Zionists have on Western politicians and media.

Tequila, isn't this all a bit ironic? Isn't one of your complaints about Muslims in Britain that they allegedly do not integrate? And isn't it common for liberals to respond to such complaints by saying how nice the Muslims they have met are, and how nice their food is, and by accusing the complainer of just being bitter about their lack of success in life?

I prefer not to think in terms of good and bad, but in terms of conflicts of interest. Different peoples often come into conflict when they share the same space, and Jews have lived (and continue to live) among many different peoples. Still, I myself have never had a negative experience with any Jewish person, and I myself used to wonder why Europeans past and present would ever bother to be concerned about the influence of such a small minority. Let's just say that a little research has persuaded me that it is not quite correct to say Jews "keep to themselves", because Jewish influence on the wider Western societies in which they live is often larger than most people think.

If you are, as you imply, genuinely curious about hearing the other side of the story (and since you are clearly prepared to investigate taboo materials on other subjects such as Geert Wilders' "Fitna") then there is a (free online) book I recommend, called When Victims Rule by Chad Powers. I will point out now that the book contains about 10,000 quotes (almost one every other paragraph) taken from almost entirely mainstream (and mainly Jewish) sources, but that the first 50 or 100 pages alone might suffice to strongly challenge many people's preconceptions. And if in your case they do not, you can still use the book as an aid to help you understand what some of your opponents might think.

I will also point out that as far as I know the author (who comes across as fairly liberal) does not represent any political or religious group, although his book has now been picked up by some "right-wing" and Islamic sites. I will not link to those though. You can download the book from 4shared.com - http://www.4shared.com/document/jtoHCL1 ... _by_C.html But only if you are prepared to be challenged. If you are not, I recommend avoiding the book altogether.

How about it, Tequila?

You might as well say that about any ethnic minority group. Remind me, please: do Jews not drink alcohol? Do they walk about the place in shrouds? Do they - regularly! - attack peaceful people wanting to exercise their free speech? Do they fly planes into buildings? Are there gangs of Jewish men raping local white girls and claming it as a sport? Do they use their book to justify their general behaviour? No?



Have they condoned any of the above? Are they nice people? If both is true, I'm not worried about Jewish people, just as I'm not worried about people from Southport. The ones on here and the ones I've met have never bothered me and I've never had cause to bother them.

I don't take exception to anyone coming to live in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland that exists peacefully, does their bit for society, does not want to force their ideology upon me, and generally leaves me alone. But that's because I'm a classical liberal and ethnic nationalists like yourself don't like our kind.



Does this refer to the whole concept of 'victim poker'? I am familiar with the term.

Last edited by Tequila on 20 Dec 2011, 5:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Oh, and regarding the battier elements of Judaism: they like to dress like pillocks. I can't say it bothers me; it's no more than we're used to in general here in Britain. Let them do their thing if it makes them happy. They get to feel fulfilled and we can have a sunny glow on being a proper country. Threaten our civilisation, though, and we get angry.

Judaism hasn't had cause to bother me and I still want to visit Israel.

I like Geert Wilders but I don't agree with his solutions to the problem.