Free-will and Atheism

Page 2 of 34 [ 540 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 34 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

circular
Deinonychus

Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 361
Location: France

19 Feb 2012, 10:15 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

I think we also know how the dumb and ignorant are with facts though. People can pretty much disobey or ignore any rules that go over their heads.

I don't understand. Who do you mean by ignorant ? Ignorant of religion ? In my opinion, religion is generally a form of ignorance.

And what do you think about disobeying ? Do you see it negatively ? Because I think that obeying order is not a moral value. The consequences do not depend on the fact that you obey but on the order that was given. You should not obey an order that has negative consequences. Well I am not sure what you wanted to say.

Quote:

it has to get into the societal neural memory that atheism can organize to do great things and show the best of humanity as much as religion; it just needs to be demonstrated and have visible examples.

I agree with that. It's coming, slowely, but there are some examples already. For example, caritative associations are not always religious or at least the religious aspect can be non significant.

techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,685
Location: 28th Path of Tzaddi

19 Feb 2012, 10:23 am

circular wrote:

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

I think we also know how the dumb and ignorant are with facts though. People can pretty much disobey or ignore any rules that go over their heads.

I don't understand. Who do you mean by ignorant ? Ignorant of religion ?

No, I mean that as morality needs to appeal to reason and well thought out arguments under an atheist system the dumb and ignorant will ignore any rule that goes over their heads. If someone's too basic to follow your argument they won't do it. I'm not saying this is a deal-killer for atheism or an atheistic rubric of culture, just that it would be naive to think that reason won't face just as many challenges as religion when its essentially being ladled out to apes by apes.

I guess all I'm saying - stay realistic and perhaps also realize that social conservatism as well in a lot of ways sprung from very real challenges that are even getting re-exumed at the present. I'm not advocating social conservatism, just saying never underestimate the wisdom of rules from the past even if the believers themselves seem to have no idea why they believe those things or where those rules came from. If it deals with a real problem, well, there needs to be a patch for that problem rather than willful ignorance of it.

_________________
The loneliest part of life: it's not just that no one is on your cloud, few can even see your cloud.

Mike1
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 12 Jul 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 710

19 Feb 2012, 1:34 pm

I don't believe in a God who sends people to Hell because they're not members of a certain religion. There are plenty of good people out there who practice religions other than Christianity. I believe that lacking morals and only caring about yourself will hurt you in this life and the life after this. Not because of eternal damnation, but because of personal guilt and the lack favor from the people and spirits around you. As for me, a lot of people aren't in my favor anyways so I don't care. I refuse to like anyone who doesn't like me. I manipulate parts of society, but not usually individual people and feel little guilt for it. Few things that I do are ever personal. I only care about whether spirits favor me. They're the only ones who are pure enough to have the right to judge me and whose oninion about me really matters. My life is affected more positively be the spirits around me than by the people around me. Despite that I've done many bad things and they should hate me by now, they've prevented many bad things from happening to me and have saved my life a number of times. They're the only ones who I can truly love and honor despite their opinion of me.

Thom_Fuleri
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 7 Mar 2010
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 849
Location: Leicestershire, UK

19 Feb 2012, 2:03 pm

AudaciousLarue wrote:

Is questioning everything really a "sin?" Is having free will putting you at odds with God, whom I really sometimes feel does exist, yet at the same time don't?

Think of it this way.

If God is the type of being that would send you to an eternal punishment for asking questions and using the brain he gave you in the first place, then God is mentally unstable. A being like that is likely to send you to Hell for any reason, or no reason; even if you make it to an afterlife by his side, you'll have an eternity of walking on eggshells in case he flips out.

If God is more concerned that you believe unquestioningly than in what you actually DO in this life, you have to wonder what he wants us FOR. My best guess is food - subservient prey that walks meekly into the slaughterhouse. Christianity is littered with references to the "flock" and "the Lord is my shepherd". Avoid sin, grow plump and embrace an eternity as mutton chops.

But maybe God is more sensible than that. If God is truly looking to reward the good and punish the bad, your belief in him is irrelevant. Do something good with your life, make a difference, make life better for those around you. A just and worthy God will reward that far more than just going to church every week.

And of course, it's entirely possible (nay, likely) that God is a myth and Hell is a fiction, in which case you should demonstrate to your parents those Christian values that so many Christians fail to uphold - tell them you love them and that you forgive them.

CrazyCatLord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 24 Oct 2011
Age: 55
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,177

19 Feb 2012, 2:57 pm

Mike1 wrote:

There are also plenty of good people who don't practice religion and don't lack morals. And there is certainly no shortage of immoral people who practice religion

circular
Deinonychus

Joined: 26 Jan 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 361
Location: France

19 Feb 2012, 5:28 pm

CrazyCatLord wrote:

Mike1 wrote:

There are also plenty of good people who don't practice religion and don't lack morals. And there is certainly no shortage of immoral people who practice religion

And caring about ourselves is not a bad idea. You can care about others only if they allow you to do it, which is not always obvious.

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

Well, we can decide to have simple rules. It is not necessary that everyone be capable of understand why each rule is here.

Quote:

I'm not advocating social conservatism, just saying never underestimate the wisdom of rules from the past even if the believers themselves seem to have no idea why they believe those things or where those rules came from.

Well, we can analyse old rules to see if they are useful. Again, not everyone needs to do this. But the process of analyzing it can be completely atheist, consequentialist.

Quote:

If it deals with a real problem, well, there needs to be a patch for that problem rather than willful ignorance of it.

What do you mean ?

cw10
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 23 May 2011
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 973

19 Feb 2012, 10:01 pm

If you don't believe in something, you'll believe in anything.

Vigilans
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,181
Location: Montreal

19 Feb 2012, 10:03 pm

cw10 wrote:

If you don't believe in something, you'll believe in anything.

Nope

_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do

cw10
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 23 May 2011
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 973

19 Feb 2012, 10:08 pm

Vigilans wrote:

cw10 wrote:

If you don't believe in something, you'll believe in anything.

Nope

Prove it.

kestrel
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 13 Jan 2012
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 574
Location: Ohio

19 Feb 2012, 10:09 pm

cw10 wrote:

If you don't believe in something, you'll believe in anything.

If you don't believe in a particular, you'll believe in a generalization? :huh:

Vigilans
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,181
Location: Montreal

19 Feb 2012, 10:12 pm

cw10 wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

cw10 wrote:

If you don't believe in something, you'll believe in anything.

Nope

Prove it.

People who "believe anything" are those who have the supernatural inclination you think is necessary for normalcy. Its not atheists, agnostics or apatheists who join crazy cults or throw millions at faith healers

techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,685
Location: 28th Path of Tzaddi

19 Feb 2012, 10:13 pm

cw10 wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

cw10 wrote:

If you don't believe in something, you'll believe in anything.

Nope

Prove it.

Its a vacuous claim. There's no one alive who doesn't believe in something. Atheists believe in gravity, believe in physics, believe in chemistry, believe in biology, believe in process and scientific method, believe in the logical hold and meaning of human empathy, believe in common law, believe in due process. So far though I haven't run into many, if any atheists, who believe in unicorns.

_________________
The loneliest part of life: it's not just that no one is on your cloud, few can even see your cloud.

Oodain
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,022
Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,

19 Feb 2012, 10:13 pm

cw10 wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

cw10 wrote:

If you don't believe in something, you'll believe in anything.

Nope

Prove it.

prove that people who dont believe in something will believe in anything (kinda contradictory in itself, barely consistent(see the above post by techstep), maybe you had an actual point behind it?)

it is an assertion and as such the burden of evidence falls on you and not everyone else to prove you wrong.

_________________
//through chaos comes complexity//

the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.

cw10
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 23 May 2011
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 973

19 Feb 2012, 10:20 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

cw10 wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

cw10 wrote:

If you don't believe in something, you'll believe in anything.

Nope

Prove it.

Exactly. You prove my point.

Doesn't matter what you believe in, but it needs to be consistent with a firm base otherwise you can be thrown into doubt which isn't a bad thing, doubt is a natural form of error checking.

Vigilans
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,181
Location: Montreal

19 Feb 2012, 10:21 pm

cw10 wrote:

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

cw10 wrote:

Vigilans wrote:

cw10 wrote:

If you don't believe in something, you'll believe in anything.

Nope

Prove it.

But the non-supernatural do not count as a "firm base"? What is your point? This seems to be yet another vacuous straw man about atheists/etc from you

techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,685
Location: 28th Path of Tzaddi

19 Feb 2012, 10:23 pm

cw10 wrote:

Secular non-theistic religions (meaning political ones, not Buddhism) are something that happens to people who decide not to believe in a deity but can't be honest enough with themselves or separate their emotions well enough to go the full distance.

_________________
The loneliest part of life: it's not just that no one is on your cloud, few can even see your cloud.

Page 2 of 34 [ 540 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 34 Next

Jump to:

Free-will and Atheism Post Reply New Topic

Free-will and Atheism