I also have a question for atheists

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I lived in England for forty years and during much of that time barely a week went past without yet another IRA bombing incident or some shootings being on the TV news. It seemed endless tit for tat carnage. There is a lot of bad blood in Northern Ireland.

It still comes down to Catholic versus Protestant. If their religions were not important to them, then they would have no reason to murder each other.

Most don't anymore.

I've never had a problem with it. Mind you, I tend to hang around with a fairly enlightened crowd. And I'm not someone like Dawkins, who attacks all religions (I only criticise those that I feel are doing harm), so that probably helps. That said, it isn't something that comes up very often.

I don't think you should make such sweeping statements. For a start you should know the difference between religion and a label. The protestants were also supporters of The House of Orange, meaning they were political, and that is still a political contention today. They also had the Calvinistic Work Ethic, with a positive attitude. It was no small wonder they became more successful than the Roman Catholics. That has been a bone of contention over the years, as the Catholics asked. why should the Protestants get all the best jobs.

I would have to agree that Cromwell treated the Roman Catholics badly, but then he wasn't absolutely wonderful to a lot of people. That is part of the past we all have to leave behind. We should not dig up the past as an excuse for present day resentments.

No, here you're more likely to be seen as weird if you're religious.

Historically, the Irish are reactionary. People shouldn't poke if they don't want poked back and the British have a long history of cowardly bullying, taking what they want and doing as they please at any expense. To be treated as a second class citizen in your own country is surely not something to accept. It's akin to racism, but more outwardly subtle without such obvious physical differences as black and white.

Last edited by ZX_SpectrumDisorder on 20 May 2012, 5:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

On topic - I do get some strange reactions from religious people when asked if I follow an religion. I am quite vocal about it when pushed and this often causes arguments. I relish the arguments, dealing with delusional idiots is like sport to me and I quite enjoy it.

Well bullying certainly, and colonialism cannot be excused. However, I do not think we should confuse Christianity with the intent of those who saw it as working to their advantage.

How do you mean?

When I was younger I simply despised religios people, didn't want anything to do with them. All the institutions of religion could've burned to the ground and I wouldn't shed a tear. My understanding now is that the religious simply don't know better. They haven't developed the intellectual capacity to reason for themselves so they flock like sheep to "the norm" - churches, preachers, religions, etc.

In the back of my mind I can't help but think the majority of these believers are actually doubters but are afraid to go against the grain. Similarly, I think the majority of political leaders around the world are too smart to subscribe to such a fallacious ideology but claim allegiance to it for votes.

I also think a lot of religous leaders may themselves be doubters but they need to control their populace and keep those tithes coming in. I don't ask anyone to provide proof anymore because they're incapable of it. I don't ask anyone to provide proof of life after death because they're incapable of it. They simply use circular reasoning to explain themselves but end up tripping over their own words in embarrassing fashion.

Last edited by redrobin62 on 20 May 2012, 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Here, in the West of Scotland, we have a Catholic/Protestant clash. The feelings are similar to NI (due to mass immigration to here, from Northern Ireland and the Republic), but we don't have the paramilitary groups. There is hatred here, which raises its ugly head each time a football match is played between Rangers and Celtic. I say Catholic/Protestant, but, from experience, most people involved in the animosity toward the other side don't even attend church. I was raised Catholic, but I was one of very few in my class who went to mass every Sunday. The others in my class were 'Catholic' apparently and hated the 'Proddies', but they ridiculed me for going to mass and believing in God. They have children now and send them to the Catholic school, are raising them as Catholic, and still don't go to mass each week. I doubt very many of them even believe in God at all. It does seem to be a cultural/historical thing and really has very little to do with faith. Strangley, I'm the one who is a proclaimed agnostic now.

BTW Grebels, I don't think we can call the British, who ruled Ireland, Celts. That may be quite accurate where the Scots, Welsh and some English are concerned. But, as for the majority of the English (who are the largest group), a fair portion of their ancestry would have been Anglo-Saxon. Although I'm not sure of the significance of that.

Football and religion - double blow for idiocy.

Hey! I like football! 10 lashes!
Not to stray too far off topic, I like American football because it's like watching a chess board come alive while watching the referees implement rules arcane and obvious. Intellectually, I can appreciate football's complexity even if it simply seems like giants banging into each other on the field.

Our past ruling class saw great opportunities in the undeveloped nations of this world. The well known example of bullying was in China. The British liked the Chinese luxury goods, but had no proper goods to offer by way of return, so decided to push opium on the Chinese. The British also placed a massive fine on the Chinese for trying to assert their independence. The Chinese still haven't forgotten this.

Unfortunately the missionaries got well mixed up with all this. They did seem to have the idea that 'God is an Englishman', but I think their intentions were well meant. What was not well meant was the attitude of the industrialists and profit makers who rode on the back of those missionary efforts.

The big problem seem to be when Christianity is the state religion with all the power than can give. It is far to easy to mistake politics for religion. I think what was often the case in those days was the need to be seen as Christian whatever one's personal beliefs.

Mummy of Peanut, you have misunderstood me. Quite obviously Oliver Cromwell was not a Celt and I didn't mean to imply that. However, you may discover that our ruling classes were descended not from the Anglo Saxons but those bandits who came from Normandy. You may know they even spread to Ireland, hence the name Fitzwhatever. But the majority of English who could well do without Ireland are not only Anglo Saxon but Danish in origin. I live on the border where those two met.

I would like to make the point that religion and Christanity can be two quite different things. My whole point here is the failings of human nature should not be blamed on Christianity.