Che Guevara: Hero or Villan?

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Joker
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07 Jun 2012, 10:01 pm

People that support communism never wana talk about communist geneocide.

Raptor
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07 Jun 2012, 10:16 pm

Shatbat wrote:

Raptor wrote:

AstroGeek wrote:

Raptor wrote:

Guevara was a marxist and that's all I need to know....
Villain.

Open your mind a bit. People who disagree with you aren't necessarily villains. I'm not defending what Che did (see my earlier post), but you can't call him a villain simply because of what ideology he held.

Communism is the practical implementation of Marxism.
I bet the tens of millions that have lost their lives to communism in the world, especially the USSR and China, would disagree with you.
I think I'll keep my mind closed to that kind of ideology...........

Anti-communist huh?

On paper, a correct implementation of Marxism is not bad, actually. The lives lost you mention aren't consequences of communism itself, but of an oppresive government.

Quote:

Anti-communist huh?

Yes

Quote:

On paper, a correct implementation of Marxism is not bad, actually.

Yeah, well in the real world "on paper Marxism" takes a distant back seat to brute force and coercion.

Quote:

The lives lost you mention aren't consequences of communism itself, but of an oppresive government.

And some people bemoaned that the Bush administration was oppressive but there haven't been any mass graves of millions of dissidents uncovered......

Raptor
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07 Jun 2012, 10:17 pm

Joker wrote:

People that support communism never wana talk about communist geneocide.

It's one of those unpopular truths..............

Shatbat
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07 Jun 2012, 10:28 pm

Quote:

Anti-communist huh?

Yes

Ok. Not trying to change that one

Quote:

On paper, a correct implementation of Marxism is not bad, actually.

Yeah, well in the real world "on paper Marxism" takes a distant back seat to brute force and coercion.

Brute force and coercion don't have a place in Marxism. As I mentioned it comes as a consequence of an oppressive government. And that's why I said "on paper", I agree that so far there haven't been successful implementations of Marxism, at least that I know of.

Quote:

The lives lost you mention aren't consequences of communism itself, but of an oppressive government.

And some people bemoaned that the Bush administration was oppressive but there haven't been any mass graves of millions of dissidents uncovered......

I've never said anything ever about the Bush government. It *might* have been oppressive relative to the standard in the US, I know nothing about his internal policy, but Americans have it waaaaay better than the truly oppressive governments.

Quote:

Well I guess that's one way to deny communist genocide.....

I think the point AstroGeek wanted to make was not to deny the genocide itself, but to say that people like Stalin wasn't truly communist. He killed a lot of people, that's for sure, although to make an indirect example, if Chilean dictator August Pinochet was also responsible of genocide, and he was capitalist, can I speak about "capitalist genocide"?

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Raptor
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07 Jun 2012, 10:46 pm

Shatbat wrote:

Quote:

Anti-communist huh?

Yes

Ok. Not trying to change that one

Quote:

On paper, a correct implementation of Marxism is not bad, actually.

Yeah, well in the real world "on paper Marxism" takes a distant back seat to brute force and coercion.

Quote:

The lives lost you mention aren't consequences of communism itself, but of an oppressive government.

And some people bemoaned that the Bush administration was oppressive but there haven't been any mass graves of millions of dissidents uncovered......

Quote:

Well I guess that's one way to deny communist genocide.....

My whole point is that in practice communism/marxism kills and history shows this to be true. I've studied Marx, Engels, and Hegel enough to understand the theory but the implementation of that ideology ends up oppressive when the implementation of those ideologies hit the inevitable resistance.

As far as the Bush thing I know you didn't say anything about that but during that era the administration was shamelessly compared to the third reich and the sith, believe it or not, by some. I remember it and thought it was hilarious.

naturalplastic
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07 Jun 2012, 10:56 pm

Raptor wrote:

AstroGeek wrote:

Raptor wrote:

Guevara was a marxist and that's all I need to know....
Villain.

The guy with the Death's Head symbol of Hitler's SS as his avatar is warning us all about dangerous poltical creeds!

Thats rich.

Oodain
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07 Jun 2012, 10:57 pm

was just about to write, your post literally came up wen i clicked reply :lol:

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Shatbat
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07 Jun 2012, 10:58 pm

Raptor wrote:

My whole point is that in practice communism/marxism kills and history shows this to be true.

You know? I agree with that. From what I know, "on paper" marxism requires at the beginning stages a government of the working class with almost absolute power, the dictatorship of the proletariat, but in practice virtually any person or organization with absolute power will abuse it, and go to any lenghts to keep it. In that sense, I wouldn't say that marxism kills per se, but the consequences of it's practical implementations.

Raptor wrote:

...the implementation of that ideology ends up oppressive when the implementation of those ideologies hits the inevitable resistance.

I couldn't have phrased it better. I agree with that one too.

Raptor wrote:

As far as the Bush thing I know you didn't say anything about that but during that era the administration was shamelessly compared to the third reich and the sith, believe it or not, by some. I remember it and thought it was hilarious.

To the Third Reich? Seriously? :lol:

Oh well, at least I see this debate is going somewhere. Now to get a bit back on topic, in Che Guevara believed in the ideals of Marxism instead of the ramifications of it's practice, would he still be a villain?

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Last edited by Shatbat on 07 Jun 2012, 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

puddingmouse
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07 Jun 2012, 11:00 pm

HisDivineMajesty wrote:

What I didn't realise, though, was that English people liked Oliver Cromwell. Most English people I know seem to detest the man with all their hearts.

He got rid of the monarchy - that's enough to earn him a bit of respect amongst certain sections of the population. Not a lot of English people learn about the genocide he committed in Ireland.

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Raptor
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07 Jun 2012, 11:32 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

Raptor wrote:

AstroGeek wrote:

Raptor wrote:

Guevara was a marxist and that's all I need to know....
Villain.

The guy with the Death's Head symbol of Hitler's SS as his avatar is warning us all about dangerous poltical creeds!

Thats rich.

No, that's a pirate's jolly roger flag.
Arrgh.....
:twisted:

Kraichgauer
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08 Jun 2012, 3:51 am

There's no way getting around the fact that he was a murderer who had helped institute a left wing dictatorship. But he's been perceived as a romantic figure, especially since he was martyred for a cause he seems to have honestly believed in - and perception is everything.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

ArrantPariah
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08 Jun 2012, 9:27 am

On the other hand, their was Ronald Reagan, who was a big champion of right-wing death squads.

Raptor
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08 Jun 2012, 9:50 am

ArrantPariah wrote:

On the other hand, their was Ronald Reagan, who was a big champion of right-wing death squads.

Within the US?
I don't think so........ :roll:

NeantHumain
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08 Jun 2012, 10:23 am

In this New Yorker piece, it states that Che Guevera vociferously denounced William Alexander Morgan, who fought against General Batista in the Cuban Revolution, for being insufficiently revolutionary regarding communism, so his former friend and ally in the revolution Fidel Castro had him executed by firing squad. Brutal.

ArrantPariah
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08 Jun 2012, 11:27 am

Raptor wrote:

ArrantPariah wrote:

On the other hand, their was Ronald Reagan, who was a big champion of right-wing death squads.

Within the US?
I don't think so........ :roll:

No, silly.

http://www.democracynow.org/2004/6/8/re ... cher_of_my

Quote:

The 8 years Reagan was in office represented one of the most bloody eras in the history of the Western hemisphere, as Washington funneled money, weapons and other supplies to right wing death squads. And the death toll was staggering–more than 70,000 political killings in El Salvador, more than 100,000 in Guatemala, 30,000 killed in the contra war in Nicaragua. In Washington, the forces carrying out the violence were called "freedom fighters." This is how Ronald Reagan described the Contras in Nicaragua: "They are our brothers, these freedom fighters and we owe them our help. They are the moral equal of our founding fathers."

Shatbat
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08 Jun 2012, 12:13 pm

So US presidents of the past have limited their genocide to countries besides their own.

From what I know about history, a lot of central and sounth-american dictators (Somoza, Trujillo, Batista, Pinochet) where endorsed by the U.S. on their anti-communist cruzades.

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