Zeitgeist
on the surface, it appears to be an odd mix of far left socio-political ideology and far right conspiracy paranoia (in terms of the latter, especially the ideas espoused in the original film), with a streak of proto-fascist futurist idealism. a weird mix, altogether.
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?Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.?
Adam Smith
I'm not sure what to tell you, I've watched countless hours of people living in and working on earthships, Ive seen tropical plants growing in them with snow on the ground outside. His concept works, he just made a lot of mistakes getting there.
He has a poor track record of compensating customers for his bad designs, but a good track record for improving them. The end result is that people like me have better information on what does or doesn't work should I decide to build one myself.
hmm points taken, however i do think it is a somewhat bourgeois, idealistic thing. it's highly unlikely to take off with the masses, only ever remaining almost like a hobby for the idle leisured classes. do you think someone who works a 45 hour week and lives in social housing is ever going to to have the motivation, resources, etc. to build an earthship? nope.
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?Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.?
Adam Smith
I tend to be mistrustful of any ideology where proponent's standard behavior is to shout down any disagreement, and who frequently look like greasy welfare queens
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Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
Quite apart from all the valid economic reasons why zeitgeist would completely fail there are also rather large technical problems.
Government by computer has already been tried:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cybersyn
It didn't work.
Problem one: computers are never even as good as their programmers, they fail and strange unanticipated code interactions means strange unanticipated outcomes.
Problem two: Programmers suck. Trading to an assumption is why so many bankers ignored common sense and genuinely thought the largest property boom in history wouldn't go bust. You can also blame the automated traders for the flash crash.
Problem three: Computers are ALWAYS vulnerable to misuse, just look at stuxnet. This problem will never go away look at how hard the music industry has tried to do this and how much success they have had.
Problem four: Computers don't think. If computers had been in charge of the world's nuclear arsenal during the cold war, both the US and USSR would have launched all out attacks against each other, it is only the human in the loop deciding that the machines must be wrong that prevented this from happening on multiple occasions.
From a programming perspective the idea of government by intelligent machine is so laughably naive it belongs in Star Trek land.
The military and cybernetics projects currently in testing are stranger than fiction. Do not limit technology down to the limitations of what you are willing to accept is possible. Assume a person has the capability of their brain, therefore presume it is possible to emulate the brain to some degree (though be it improbable).
Having said that, dreaming up inventions is one thing, making them reality is another.
I agree with all the other points you made, btw.
on a much more straightforward perspective, what would be the advantage of being governed by computers? i, certainly, find the idea quite sinister, and don't see any advantage to it at all.
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?Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.?
Adam Smith
People cannot desire or preference as we know. Their access to any resources is strictly controlled by the system, which decides what people 'needs' and can be provided 'in abundance' - there would be no fine food, no fashion...
There is no need for humans in power, because the computer has its own mind. Clearly, people cannot conceive of having their own idea or questioning the computer's decision.
Basically people there are no different form robots.
nominalist
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There are aspects of Zeitgeist which may have validity. For instance, most scholars recognize that many ancient cultures drew upon a common body of knowledge or "mythology." The problem with the Zeitgeist movies is that they go beyond this basic idea to a kind of grand conspiracy. As a sociologist, I see ideas of grand conspiracies as reflections of poor critical thinking.
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Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. (retired tenured sociology professor)
36 domains/24 books: http://www.markfoster.net
Emancipated Autism: http://www.neurelitism.com
Institute for Dialectical metaRealism: http://dmr.institute
The military and cybernetics projects currently in testing are stranger than fiction. Do not limit technology down to the limitations of what you are willing to accept is possible. Assume a person has the capability of their brain, therefore presume it is possible to emulate the brain to some degree (though be it improbable).
Have you got any examples of these wondrous stranger than fiction breakthroughs in cybernetics?
To be honest your statement there is so woolly it sounds like the crap spouted by people advocating the healing power of crystals or homoeopathy.
There's a lot more to the zeitgeist movement than a computer government. There's the idea of people working together for the common good.
In countries like Germany, there's an understanding that they all live there, they don't have a problem with pooling their efforts to live in a better area. I didn't see one piede of litter on the ground when I visited Germany, even Wasington State has litter on the ground.
In most of Iraq, there was garbage everywhere, the outdoors smelled like sewage, the few nice places were surrounded by all the sh***y places. Power lines were often improvised and were easily knocked down by tall vehicles. People there didn't get along with eachother (except in the north).
I'm convinced that when people have their basic needs met, they act more civilized. I'm also convinced that there are enough resources to meet everyone's basic needs.
Oodain
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The military and cybernetics projects currently in testing are stranger than fiction. Do not limit technology down to the limitations of what you are willing to accept is possible. Assume a person has the capability of their brain, therefore presume it is possible to emulate the brain to some degree (though be it improbable).
Have you got any examples of these wondrous stranger than fiction breakthroughs in cybernetics?
To be honest your statement there is so woolly it sounds like the crap spouted by people advocating the healing power of crystals or homoeopathy.
so a two year project in chile int he seventies can be used to argue against technology they hadnt even dreamt of then??
cool but, logic doesnt work that way.
neurological digitalization, at the level where mice are being uploaded as we speak, we have already linked the first two human neural nets more than a decade ago and if you take all the data on earth since 2005 there is more than there was for the whole preceeding human history, at this rate of expansion we will create more data still, to the level of creating more every year than the whole of the preceeding human history.
in the real world any computer assisted government would require plenty of human intervention, at least realistically speaking, in fact i think you are right in that most programmers simply dont have the ability or time to create a functional macro system, there are plenty of isolated systems a computer could do that would vastly improve our way of governing today.
closed tax systems where the tax ammount is dynamically calculated based on actual use by the state would be nice.
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//through chaos comes complexity//
the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.
The military and cybernetics projects currently in testing are stranger than fiction. Do not limit technology down to the limitations of what you are willing to accept is possible. Assume a person has the capability of their brain, therefore presume it is possible to emulate the brain to some degree (though be it improbable).
Have you got any examples of these wondrous stranger than fiction breakthroughs in cybernetics?
To be honest your statement there is so woolly it sounds like the crap spouted by people advocating the healing power of crystals or homoeopathy.
so a two year project in chile int he seventies can be used to argue against technology they hadnt even dreamt of then??
Fair point.
Sounds good but it's BS.
A google search for "neurological digitalization" yields 4 results, which are all spam comments trying to sell cheap drugs. google scholar has zero results.
We have linked two 'human neural nets', oh really? Last time I checked any honest postdoc AI guy would freely admit that we are 'decades if not centuries away' from even creating a single 'human neural net' let alone creating two of them and linking them.
and if you take all the data on earth since 2005 there is more than there was for the whole preceeding human history, at this rate of expansion we will create more data still, to the level of creating more every year than the whole of the preceeding human history.
So what?
That may be good for lawyers trying to dig up evidence or blokes with ever expanding porn collections but it is doing bugger all for anyone else except creating a data management headache.
And given that the zeitgeist guys claim their world be run by a perfect computer that can't be hacked and requires no human intervention it shows just how fantastical in nature their ideas are.
Oodain
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i never spoke directly of zeitgeist, as any other ideology it is inherently flawed in itself.
Kevin warwicks project cyborg successfully linked his nerves to his wifes nerves and to a robotic hand,
his research began in 98.
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Simulation of C. elegans roundworm neural system
Brain map of the C. elegans roundworm 302 neurons, interconnected by 5000 synnapses.
The connectivity of the neural circuit for touch sensitivity of the simple C. elegans nematode (roundworm) was mapped in 1985,[23] and partly simulated in 1993.[24] Several software simulation models of the complete neural and muscular system, and to some extent the worm's physical environment, have been presented since 2004, and are in some cases available for downloading.[25] However, we still lack understanding of how the neurons and the connections between them generate the surprisingly complex range of behaviors that are observed in this relatively simple organism.[26][27]
Simulation of Drosophila fruit fly neural system
The brain belonging to the fruit fly Drosophila is also thoroughly studied, and to some extent simulated.[28]
Mouse brain simulation
An artificial neural network described as being "as big and as complex as half of a mouse brain" was run on an IBM blue gene supercomputer by a University of Nevada research team in 2007. A simulated time of one second took ten seconds of computer time. The researchers said they had seen "biologically consistent" nerve impulses flowed through the virtual cortex. However, the simulation lacked the structures seen in real mice brains, and they intend to improve the accuracy of the neuron model.[29]
Blue Brain is a project, launched in May 2005 by IBM and the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Lausanne, with the aim to create a computer simulation of a mammalian cortical column, down to the molecular level.[30] The project uses a supercomputer based on IBM's Blue Gene design to simulate the electrical behavior of neurons based upon their synaptic connectivity and complement of intrinsic membrane currents. The initial goal of the project, completed in December 2006,[31] was the simulation of a rat neocortical column, which can be considered the smallest functional unit of the neocortex (the part of the brain thought to be responsible for higher functions such as conscious thought), containing 10,000 neurons (and 108 synapses). Between 1995 and 2005, Henry Markram mapped the types of neurons and their connections in such a column. In November 2007,[32] the project reported the end of the first phase, delivering a data-driven process for creating, validating, and researching the neocortical column. The project seeks to eventually reveal aspects of human cognition and various psychiatric disorders caused by malfunctioning neurons, such as autism, and to understand how pharmacological agents affect network behavior.
An organization called the Brain Preservation Foundation was founded in 2010 and is offering a Brain Preservation Technology prize to promote exploration of brain preservation technology in service of humanity. The Prize, currently $106,000, will be awarded in two parts, 25% to the first international team to preserve a whole mouse brain, and 75% to the first team to preserve a whole large animal brain in a manner that could also be adopted for humans in a hospital or hospice setting immediately upon clinical death. Ultimately the goal of this prize is to generate a whole brain map which may be used in support of separate efforts to upload and possibly 'reboot' a mind in virtual space.
and i agree its a fledgling technology but before i knew about these specific cases i would barely have thought it possible in the world of today, much of the groundowr is already there in neuroinformatics.
whole brain simulation on wiki
again some of it is a decade old and much have been done since, the newest episode of through the wormhole deals with this exact issue with soe modern perspective and a look at the machine capable of scanning brains
there is even a new set of microchips designed directly to function as a neural net in a single chip.
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//through chaos comes complexity//
the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.
nominalist
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Gender: Male
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Location: Lower Rio Grande Valley of Texas (born in NYC)
The Zeitgeist movement blames global problems on monetization (i.e., the bankers) and the state. However, the basic problem, IMO, is with capitalism.
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Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. (retired tenured sociology professor)
36 domains/24 books: http://www.markfoster.net
Emancipated Autism: http://www.neurelitism.com
Institute for Dialectical metaRealism: http://dmr.institute
