Why God stopping the sun in the sky is utterly stupid.
My version may have cleared up any misunderstandings, but yours was shorter and was pretty clear, so I'd have to say yours was better. If you can say something in fewer words without losing the meaning, that's generally better.
_________________
"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." --G. K. Chesterton
That simply isn't true. Written accounts can be radically altered. Ancient books and manuscripts were often plagiarized, rewritten, and had extra writings added to them. Keep in mind that there were no copyright laws then and no ownership of intellectual property. How many times have Mormons revised their Book of Mormon? Why not? The Book of Mormon copied parts of the Bible and the rest is sheer fantasy. Christians over the centuries have added to the Bible and have constantly reinterpreted it. Writing today is far more accurate because of strict copyright laws. Of course infallible holy books are exempt and people can interpret them at will.
ruveyn
Or you know, if the whole world stopped, thus night became prolonged certain places, others the day was prolonged and so on, wouldn't this have been verifiable from non-scriptural sources. One would think that some of the more advanced cultures of the time that were quite adept at astronomy would have mentioned "oh btw, the night lasted a lot longer than it normally did" somewhere.
Especially with the nearest ocean to the East crashing over in a westward direction during the cold and dark.
In order for the Miracle at Gibeon to have happened, Intertia would have to be cancelled. What are the chances of that?
ruveyn
ruveyn
Or you know, if the whole world stopped, thus night became prolonged certain places, others the day was prolonged and so on, wouldn't this have been verifiable from non-scriptural sources. One would think that some of the more advanced cultures of the time that were quite adept at astronomy would have mentioned "oh btw, the night lasted a lot longer than it normally did" somewhere.
Especially with the nearest ocean to the East crashing over in a westward direction during the cold and dark.
In order for the Miracle at Gibeon to have happened, Intertia would have to be cancelled. What are the chances of that?
ruveyn
Pretty high really, if you are willing to accept the premise that "god" can do whatever he wants regardless of the laws of physics. From the perspective of the laws of physics kind of being set in stone (pun intended) not likely.
Of course, if I accepted the premise that "god" is able to do anything he wants, I'd be more quizzical about the thousands of children that die every year of AIDS before turning 5, or a million plus jews getting gassed, but that's just me.
When god does it he's being mysterical, if anyone else does it they're a psychopath.
Pretty high really, if you are willing to accept the premise that "god" can do whatever he wants regardless of the laws of physics. From the perspective of the laws of physics kind of being set in stone (pun intended) not likely.
Of course, if I accepted the premise that "god" is able to do anything he wants, I'd be more quizzical about the thousands of children that die every year of AIDS before turning 5, or a million plus jews getting gassed, but that's just me.
When god does it he's being mysterical, if anyone else does it they're a psychopath.
Then God could make a stone so heavy even He could not move it. Contradiction!
A word to anyone who wishes to be consistent, pay no attention to the Man Behind the Curtain.
ruveyn
Pretty high really, if you are willing to accept the premise that "god" can do whatever he wants regardless of the laws of physics. From the perspective of the laws of physics kind of being set in stone (pun intended) not likely.
Of course, if I accepted the premise that "god" is able to do anything he wants, I'd be more quizzical about the thousands of children that die every year of AIDS before turning 5, or a million plus jews getting gassed, but that's just me.
When god does it he's being mysterical, if anyone else does it they're a psychopath.
Then God could make a stone so heavy even He could not move it. Contradiction!
A word to anyone who wishes to be consistent, pay no attention to the Man Behind the Curtain.
ruveyn
That was more or less the point, if you are willing to believe A, then B isn't all that outlandish at all.
AngelRho
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Well, another way of looking at it is the Bible does record events as seen from a land-based perspective. If you interpret it that way, then the sun appeared to slow or stop its movement across the sky.
If this is not the case, i.e. the earth did not STOP moving (because the earth does not appear to move from an earth-bound perspective), what are some hypotheticals that might explain what was observed?
Suppose there was some kind of space-time anomaly, like a bubble or a fold, that could just simply have slowed the relative motion of the earth and/or the sun. That would explain how the longer day avoided causing global catastrophic effects. The only thing that's confusing, though, is a space-time bubble/bobble/whatever should affect everything on the planet, including the "clock" in our brains (how fast we process sensory input) and our own physical rate of movement. In other words, even if it happened right now, we wouldn't even know it. How could something like that pass through the earth, pass through the sun, or both, is such a way that large bodies like the sun and the earth line up so that one stops in relation to the other and human sense of time remain unaffected?
Or could it have been a massive object passing directly behind the earth exerting counterbalancing tidal forces on the oceans while slowing and momentarily stopping the earth's rotation? The main problem with global catastrophe ensuing is if the earth came to a dead stop virtually instantaneously. There would have been the obvious tsunamis even with a gentle braking effect, but conceivably nowhere near Noah's flood proportions much less actually worse.
What bothers me about the whole line of questioning is the OP is simply assuming there's no possible way it could happen. A heavily localized time-space warp, perhaps, or an as-yet unknown massive object passing near the earth might conceivable produce those effects. We're so busy explaining the impossibility of it we don't even consider how it might really have happened.
I have no problem with supernatural attribution. I mean, if you argue an actual physical possibility, then it merely holds that the event just happened to coincide with a battle. God doesn't require human beings to understand something to make that something happen. But it isn't impossible to produce a hypothetical scenario to begin understanding the physical science behind such an event.
If this is not the case, i.e. the earth did not STOP moving (because the earth does not appear to move from an earth-bound perspective), what are some hypotheticals that might explain what was observed?
Suppose there was some kind of space-time anomaly, like a bubble or a fold, that could just simply have slowed the relative motion of the earth and/or the sun. That would explain how the longer day avoided causing global catastrophic effects. The only thing that's confusing, though, is a space-time bubble/bobble/whatever should affect everything on the planet, including the "clock" in our brains (how fast we process sensory input) and our own physical rate of movement. In other words, even if it happened right now, we wouldn't even know it. How could something like that pass through the earth, pass through the sun, or both, is such a way that large bodies like the sun and the earth line up so that one stops in relation to the other and human sense of time remain unaffected?
Or could it have been a massive object passing directly behind the earth exerting counterbalancing tidal forces on the oceans while slowing and momentarily stopping the earth's rotation? The main problem with global catastrophe ensuing is if the earth came to a dead stop virtually instantaneously. There would have been the obvious tsunamis even with a gentle braking effect, but conceivably nowhere near Noah's flood proportions much less actually worse.
What bothers me about the whole line of questioning is the OP is simply assuming there's no possible way it could happen. A heavily localized time-space warp, perhaps, or an as-yet unknown massive object passing near the earth might conceivable produce those effects. We're so busy explaining the impossibility of it we don't even consider how it might really have happened.
I have no problem with supernatural attribution. I mean, if you argue an actual physical possibility, then it merely holds that the event just happened to coincide with a battle. God doesn't require human beings to understand something to make that something happen. But it isn't impossible to produce a hypothetical scenario to begin understanding the physical science behind such an event.
How many ad hoc explanations does it take to change a Biblical Fairy Tale into a True Account?
ruveyn
Why are you acting like that is somehow two things?
Granted, from a point of view of physics, it would have been impossible, but keep in mind you're arguing with people who think that God made physics, along with the rest of everything. If you assume for the sake of argument that God exists, then by definition God can change the laws of physics on a whim. If you don't assume for the sake of argument that God exists, then you'd really be better off arguing that God doesn't exist.
Ok, you didn't read the rest of the post though. Let's say for the sake of argument that this did happen. Then taking into account why, God supposedly did this, it would be inefficient there would be much better and quicker ways it could be done if he had that kind of power. Also, since this was done so that Joshua's troops could commit genocide, it also speaks to the supposed "morality" of the God of the Bible which is also addressed in the video.
I
Stopping the earth from rotating about its axis without doing catastrophic damage would require cancelling every last law of physics. All of them.
ruveyn
Which God, would be more than capable of doing... He created the laws of physics, that means he's free to ignore them whenever he feels like it.
I will be kind and just say your explanation of the non-event at Gibeon resembles the ravings of a Christian ignoramus bigot. But resemblances can be deceiving.
The Bible was written by Bronze Age Dudes who believed the earth stood still and everything move around the earth. It was a book just right for technological primitive savages.
ruveyn
The problem with what you are suggesting, is that by the time period when this event supposedly happened, the Jewish people already had a written language. You may be able to argue that they misintrepretted some other cosmic event (unlikely considering they didn't see two suns), but saying that the even didn't happen is rather silly because we can assume what happened was written down not long after the event took place.
That's why the Bible has to be given more credibility than Homer's Odessey for instance, because written accounts don't change as radically as stories that are verbally passed down.
A written language does not equate to accurate scientific knowledge of the universe. The point was that the concept of the sun stopping in the sky would of made more sense to a group of people who thought it was the sun that was moving.
AngelRho
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How many ad hoc explanations does it take to change a Biblical Fairy Tale into a True Account?
ruveyn
None. If it is a true account, it is a true account.
Is it possible to warp space-time? Supposedly the mass of a black hole can do that. If a massive object can pull on the earth and momentarily slow its rotation, then something like the sun stopping in the sky is entirely plausible. That's not ad hoc. Or if it is, that doesn't mean it is untrue. We live in a complex universe. As much as we prefer Occam's razor, the simplest answer is not always as simple as we'd hope it is.
Supernatural intervention would actually be the most parsimonious explanation. From what we know about the physical universe, what happened simply could not have happened. If we are to understand that it DID happen, then the logical conclusion is that it was a supernatural event rather than a natural one. The underlying (false) assumption is that supernatural things just don't happen, and that's a very unscientific assumption. It's unfalsifiable.
What would be falsifiable, however, would be hypothetical anomalies that might affect space-time. Or there might be physical or chemical factors that affect the perception of time. It's not ad hoc since the only assumption you have to make is that a group of people perceived the sun to stand still. If they are telling the truth, then it might be useful or at least interesting to hypothesize on what caused them to sense a lengthened day. I don't know if that battle was said to be on a certain month and day, but is it possible that the battle coincided with the summer solstice?
No, I did. I just responded to the part that concerned me. I am not a creationist or a literalist, so your other points did not apply to me.
_________________
"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." --G. K. Chesterton
How many ad hoc explanations does it take to change a Biblical Fairy Tale into a True Account?
ruveyn
None. If it is a true account, it is a true account.
I/quote]
If the sun stood still over Gibeon then the earth stopped rotating. If the earth stopped rotating quickly (say within a day) the the oceans would have sloshed over the land from East to West (inertial effects). If that happened then the flooding and destruction would most likely have drowned the humans or at least caused so much damage that there would be world wide accounts of it.
But there were no such accounts. no physical evidence of massive damage therefore the earth did not stop rotating and therefore the Biblical account is pure fiction.
Q.E.D.
A true account cannot cancel every last law of physics. Not one bit of physics would remain intact. Not a shred. But we know physics at the very least is partially right. Proof? We are communicating by an electronic network which shows that quantum electrodynamics as mostly (if not all) sound and correct.
In a word, the Bible is mostly fiction written by Late Bronze Age technical ignoramuses.
Here is a piece advice to you, given for free. Do NOT take the Bible literally and factually. It is a book of just so tales and made up stories.
ruveyn
Here is a piece advice to you, given for free. Do NOT take the Bible literally and factually. It is a book of just so tales and made up stories.
ruveyn
The literal interpretation of the Bible is in fact a fairly recent phenomenon. The intellectual cul-de-sac known as Evangelicalism apparently has its roots in the 17th century. While there was most certainly persecution from the church in times past, Europe was more than capable of generating scientific progress even within the confines of Christianity (oh, and many of the greatest European scientists were Jewish).
Then some anti-semite chose to translate the Bible from Latin to German, and look where it got us...
Slightly off-topic addendum: It is interesting that independent (in other words, not scriptual literalism) legal reasoning in Islam, ijtihad, declined simultaneously with the scientific decline of the Islamic world beginning in the 14th century.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ijtihad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_science#Decline
So perhaps the West should be worried more about our homegrown evangelicals than the rise of China or terrorism. These guys can bring down the house without external aid.
The same thing applies for Israel and the Haredi.
Christianity would in fact be pretty harmless if people didn't take it so seriously.
