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What would be the consequences of Iran getting nukes?

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GGPViper
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18 Nov 2012, 11:06 am

thomas81 wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
Would it necessarily be KABOOM? I don't think so. Pakistan and India haven't nuked each other yet.

I realise Iran probably isn't going to get one because it'd have a war with Israel and other powers on its hands before it would be built; a horrible, bloody war.


I think there is more chance of Israel making an arab country go 'KABOOM' as a result of Iran not having nuclear weapons because there is presently no deterrence from them doing otherwise.


Israel may have had nuclear weapons for more than 40 years as the only country in the Middle East. I don't recall Israel ever having launched a nuclear strike.



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18 Nov 2012, 11:12 am

ruveyn wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
Would it necessarily be KABOOM? I don't think so. Pakistan and India haven't nuked each other yet.

I realise Iran probably isn't going to get one because it'd have a war with Israel and other powers on its hands before it would be built; a horrible, bloody war.


The consequence would be lots of dead Jews. However this time the Jews are not going meekly to the slaughter. There will be lots of dead Iranians. I really think they ought to thank the Jews who send them the tent of their 72 dark eyed virgin houris.

ruveyn


Nuking Israel would also result in a lot of dead Palestinians as well which would pretty much null the point of their dislike of Israel.

I think Iran wants nukes for the same reason as North Korea- to act as a deterrence first and secondly a bargaining chip to use at international talks.



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18 Nov 2012, 11:14 am

GGPViper wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
Would it necessarily be KABOOM? I don't think so. Pakistan and India haven't nuked each other yet.

I realise Iran probably isn't going to get one because it'd have a war with Israel and other powers on its hands before it would be built; a horrible, bloody war.


I think there is more chance of Israel making an arab country go 'KABOOM' as a result of Iran not having nuclear weapons because there is presently no deterrence from them doing otherwise.


Israel may have had nuclear weapons for more than 40 years as the only country in the Middle East. I don't recall Israel ever having launched a nuclear strike.


That doesnt mean Iran is any more likely to launch first either.

I think that the distrust of Iran having nukes is down to this .ungrounded western pathology and chauvinism against arabs and the arab world. As if Israel is westernised therefore 'better'.



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18 Nov 2012, 11:18 am

thomas81 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
Would it necessarily be KABOOM? I don't think so. Pakistan and India haven't nuked each other yet.

I realise Iran probably isn't going to get one because it'd have a war with Israel and other powers on its hands before it would be built; a horrible, bloody war.


I think there is more chance of Israel making an arab country go 'KABOOM' as a result of Iran not having nuclear weapons because there is presently no deterrence from them doing otherwise.


Israel may have had nuclear weapons for more than 40 years as the only country in the Middle East. I don't recall Israel ever having launched a nuclear strike.


That doesnt mean Iran is any more likely to launch first either.

I think that the distrust of Iran having nukes is down to this ungrounded western pathology and chauvinism against arabs and the arab world. As if Israel is westernised therefore 'better'.


Umm, have you heard about this thing called "Islam"?

Oh, and last time I checked, the Druze are Arabs. In Israel, they serve alongside Jews in the IDF... I wonder why...



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18 Nov 2012, 11:23 am

GGPViper wrote:
Umm, have you heard about this thing called "Islam"?

Oh, and last time I checked, the Druze are Arabs. In Israel, they serve alongside Jews in the IDF... I wonder why...


In fact, Druze leaders right from the very beginning of Israel's founding have pledged loyalty to the Israeli state. In 1957 the Druze were granted the status of a special religious group by Israel. Most of them reject Arab nationalism and side with Israel - one of the most hawkish Israeli MKs (Ayoob Kara) is in fact a Druze.

Did thomas81 also know that, in fact, the judge who sentenced a former Israeli PM to prison for rape was, in fact, an Arab?



thomas81
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18 Nov 2012, 11:38 am

GGPViper wrote:

Umm, have you heard about this thing called "Islam"?

Yes I have, sweeping generalisations do not validate your argument.


GGPViper wrote:
Oh, and last time I checked, the Druze are Arabs. In Israel, they serve alongside Jews in the IDF... I wonder why...


They are one minority denomination within a religion encompassing a billion people. Your point is?



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18 Nov 2012, 11:40 am

thomas81 wrote:
They are one minority denomination within a religion encompassing a billion people. Your point is?


Er, no, they don't consider themselves Muslims. They split off from Islam in the 11th century.



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18 Nov 2012, 11:47 am

Tequila wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
They are one minority denomination within a religion encompassing a billion people. Your point is?


Er, no, they don't consider themselves Muslims. They split off from Islam in the 11th century.


Then the point is even less relevant. Anti Palestinian sentiment is predominately Islamophobic in its rationale. It was Lebanese Christians who massacred around a thousand Palestinians at Sabra and Shatila. With Israeli assistance though.



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18 Nov 2012, 11:49 am

thomas81 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:

Umm, have you heard about this thing called "Islam"?

Yes I have, sweeping generalisations do not validate your argument.


Sweeping generalization: "ungrounded western pathology and chauvinism against arabs and the arab world".

thomas81 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Oh, and last time I checked, the Druze are Arabs. In Israel, they serve alongside Jews in the IDF... I wonder why...


They are one minority denomination within a religion encompassing a billion people. Your point is?


That is an extremely intolerant statement. The Druze have their own religion.

And they are apostates in the eyes of mainstream Islam (punishable by death), which give them every reason to fight for the existence of Israel.

The same thing applies for the Bahá'í. Their global headquarters is (surprise, surprise) in Israel.



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18 Nov 2012, 11:55 am

thomas81 wrote:
Anti Palestinian sentiment is predominately Islamophobic in its rationale.


More lies. Just like the lie of the Apartheid state, the lie that Israel is planning to take over Al-Aqsa, the lie that Israelis drink Palestinian blood, the lie that Palestinians live in concentration camps.

If the Palestinians stop bombing and murdering Israelis, come to the negotiating table, and genuinely negotiate peace - real peace - then the better for everyone - for the Palestinian people themselves, the Israelis, and for the entire region. The Palestinian and Arab leaders don't want peace though - they want to keep their people angry, poor, resentful, without good jobs, without good homes and so on. They want them to hate Jews and Israel for all the failings that they have in their lives (you should have a look at Arab media from time to time) without thinking about the root cause of their problem - the barbaric, religiously-obsessed theocratic dumps in which they live. The real cause of so much suffering in the Middle East has nothing to do with Israel or to do with Jews - it's down to the Islamist thugs and their leaders who have an iron grip over their peoples. The sooner the Arabs can shake off that grip, negotiate a lasting peace with Israel and live in a society where religion is put in its place, the better for everyone. Israeli, Syrian, Saudi Arabian, Jordanian, Lebanese, Egyptian, Libyan, etc...



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18 Nov 2012, 11:56 am

GGPViper wrote:
That is an extremely intolerant statement. The Druze have their own religion.

And they are apostates in the eyes of mainstream Islam (punishable by death), which give them every reason to fight for the existence of Israel.

The same thing applies for the Bahá'í. Their global headquarters is (surprise, surprise) in Israel.


This.



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18 Nov 2012, 11:58 am

GGPViper wrote:


Sweeping generalization: "ungrounded western pathology and chauvinism against arabs and the arab world".

This is an invalid premise. First and foremost I am western. Secondly a prescribed cause behind a opinion in this context isnt a generalisation, its a empirical conclusion.

Especially when one has experience of arabs and muslims which contradicts the popular perception of the group in the western public domain.
GGPViper wrote:

That is an extremely intolerant statement. The Druze have their own religion.

And they are apostates in the eyes of mainstream Islam (punishable by death), which give them every reason to fight for the existence of Israel.

The same thing applies for the Bahá'í. Their global headquarters is (surprise, surprise) in Israel.


I still don't understand what your original point was,



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18 Nov 2012, 12:03 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Anti Palestinian sentiment is predominately Islamophobic in its rationale.


Phobia:

Wikipedia: "A persistent fear of an object or situation in which the sufferer commits to great lengths in avoiding, typically disproportional to the actual danger posed, often being recognized as irrational."

Dictionary.com: "a persistent, irrational fear of a specific object, activity, or situation that leads to a compelling desire to avoid it."

Medline Plus: "It is a strong, irrational fear of something that poses little or no actual danger.

Merriam-Webster: "an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation".

As there is very good reason to be fearful of Islam, it must follow that Islamophobia does not exist.



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18 Nov 2012, 12:03 pm

thomas81 wrote:
I still don't understand what your original point was,


You said that the Druze are a sect within Islam. GGPViper corrected you by stating that the Druze are a completely separate religion from Islam that is influenced by it, but is fundamentally about their own spiritual, holy texts. Sunni Muslims consider the Druze to be apostates (punishable by death in Sharia).



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18 Nov 2012, 12:03 pm

Tequila wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Anti Palestinian sentiment is predominately Islamophobic in its rationale.


More lies. Just like the lie of the Apartheid state, the lie that Israel is planning to take over Al-Aqsa, the lie that Israelis drink Palestinian blood,
Who said that?
Tequila wrote:
the lie that Palestinians live in concentration camps.

The wall cutting off Gaza from any constituency to the west bank or Israel is effectively turning Gaza into a concentration camp. It has watch towers and a huge concrete wall preventing escape. What do you call it?
Tequila wrote:
If the Palestinians stop bombing and murdering Israelis,
come to the negotiating table, and genuinely negotiate peace - real peace - then the better for everyone - for the Palestinian people themselves, the Israelis, and for the entire region. The Palestinian and Arab leaders don't want peace though - they want to keep their people angry, poor, resentful, without good jobs, without good homes and so on. They want them to hate Jews and Israel for all the failings that they have in their lives (you should have a look at Arab media from time to time) without thinking about the root cause of their problem - the barbaric, religiously-obsessed theocratic dumps in which they live. The real cause of so much suffering in the Middle East has nothing to do with Israel or to do with Jews - it's down to the Islamist thugs and their leaders who have an iron grip over their peoples. The sooner the Arabs can shake off that grip, negotiate a lasting peace with Israel and live in a society where religion is put in its place, the better for everyone. Israeli, Syrian, Saudi Arabian, Jordanian, Lebanese, Egyptian, Libyan, etc...

More hysterical pro Israel ranting. By what measure does Israel's behaviour over the last week encourage peace? Yes Hamas is guilty of hatemongering close to election time, but the same can be said of Likud. Its of no coiincidence of the timing of the latest Israeli bombing.



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18 Nov 2012, 12:05 pm

Tequila wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
I still don't understand what your original point was,


You said that the Druze are a sect within Islam. GGPViper corrected you by stating that the Druze are a completely separate religion from Islam that is influenced by it, but is fundamentally about their own spiritual, holy texts. Sunni Muslims consider the Druze to be apostates (punishable by death in Sharia).


I was not informed of the druze before, nonetheless its irrelvant to the issue.