The fundamental stupidity of US gun laws

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15 Dec 2012, 7:44 pm

So what? Gun ownership has gone up in the US at the same time the overall crime rate has been falling which has been for decades. Gun crime went up in Chicago and DC during the couple decades they had a gun ban. As I mentioned, Jamaica had a total gun ban where they confiscated them door to door and they have one of the highest murder rates in the world. What you state is not fact, correlation does not imply causation.

The difference now is we a have sensationalist media and hordes of zombie voyeurs that can't get enough of the never ending stream of disaster porn. The glorification of these events only ensures that someone in the future that feels disenfranchised from society for real or imagined reasons to follow the same path.

Dox47
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15 Dec 2012, 7:57 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

What about Australia? Historically a lower level of crime, that has remained low (and mass shooting have dropped, though overall firearm homicides cannot be shown to have dropped) after the introduction of tight gun control and a gun buyback scheme.

Doesn't that part in bold tell you something?

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16 Dec 2012, 8:47 am

Dox47 wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

Doesn't that part in bold tell you something?

Yes.

Jacoby wrote:

correlation does not imply causation.

True, but correlation is a big clue that there might be some link.

Personally I think that a better indicator is that nobody in many of these countries (except maybe a small fringe) is calling for laxer gun laws, there's no political will. If America ever reached the stage where the second amendment could be overturned, then it would be a sign that the society had matured and that gun violence would be dropping anyway. I reckon the laws would then compound that.

PM
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16 Dec 2012, 9:21 am

Does gun control work in Israel? You be the judge:

What you see above is the human equivalent of a mother bear. Try to harm her cubs, you're screwed.

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16 Dec 2012, 6:53 pm

Unless you shoot her in the back. Or just drop a bomb on the school.

"We have a gun problem! Let's solve it with more guns!"

PM
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16 Dec 2012, 6:57 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

Unless you shoot her in the back. Or just drop a bomb on the school.

"We have a gun problem! Let's solve it with more guns!"

Wow, just wow.

The UK still has a gun problem despite some of the strictest gun laws on the planet.

We're going in circles here, i'm not going to budge, and neither are you.

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16 Dec 2012, 7:38 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

Doesn't that part in bold tell you something?

Yes.

Jacoby wrote:

correlation does not imply causation.

Dox47
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16 Dec 2012, 7:41 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

Unless you shoot her in the back. Or just drop a bomb on the school.

"We have a gun problem! Let's solve it with more guns!"

As opposed to the British approach? "Lets just blanket the country in CCTV cameras, ban anything that could possibly be used for self defense, ban self defense itself, arrest people for saying things that might be offensive, and otherwise emasculate the entire country in the name of public order". "Sounds good old chap, cheerio!".

Yes, let's ceding all civil rights to the state for law and order, then having it not even work is a GREAT plan, congratulations over there... :roll:

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16 Dec 2012, 7:50 pm

PM wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

Unless you shoot her in the back. Or just drop a bomb on the school.

"We have a gun problem! Let's solve it with more guns!"

Wow, just wow.

The UK still has a gun problem despite some of the strictest gun laws on the planet.

We're going in circles here, i'm not going to budge, and neither are you.

Our gun problem is negligible compared to yours- 6.6% of homocides are by firearm in England and Wales, compared to 60% in the USA. In fact, guns are dwarfed by knives here. Our gun laws are successful though, the increase in knife crime compared is balanced out by much lower gun crime, so the US murder rate is around 3.5 times higher than the UK murder rate.

Jacoby wrote:

Personally I think that a better indicator is that nobody in many of these countries (except maybe a small fringe) is calling for laxer gun laws, there's no political will. If America ever reached the stage where the second amendment could be overturned, then it would be a sign that the society had matured and that gun violence would be dropping anyway. I reckon the laws would then compound that.

Nobody is calling for stricter gun control in America but a small fringe, it's such a dead issue the only time anybody has the guts to bring it up is after unspeakable tragedies like this. It is very much the third rail of American politics.

Americans aren't Europeans. We also value the right of free speech unlike certain other countries in Europe.[/quote]
The fact that it is a third rail is a sign of the problem. Attempts to bring down the homicide rate should boost politician's careers, not harm them. Although you are wrong about it being a "fringe" concern, more people prioritise gun control than "gun rights": http://pewresearch.org/pubs/2447/newtow ... ic-opinion In the UK, you'd never get a poll remotely like that unless you deliberately biased your survey.

Once more, you make an irrelevant point (how ridiculously free speech is in America). You seem to do this a lot.

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16 Dec 2012, 8:12 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

The fact that it is a third rail is a sign of the problem. Attempts to bring down the homicide rate should boost politician's careers, not harm them. Although you are wrong about it being a "fringe" concern, more people prioritise gun control than "gun rights": http://pewresearch.org/pubs/2447/newtow ... ic-opinion In the UK, you'd never get a poll remotely like that unless you deliberately biased your survey.

Once more, you make an irrelevant point (how ridiculously free speech is in America). You seem to do this a lot.

Our belief in free speech is relevant to highlight the differences between Americans and Europeans.

And polling people after tragedies serves little purpose other than to push an agenda. George W Bush's approval rating after 9/11 was like 93%. Americans value the right to bear arms and do not tolerate attempts to take away that right.

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16 Dec 2012, 8:17 pm

You know most Europeans are also in favour of free speech?

Do you acknowledge that there is a cultural problem in America that leads to increased gun crime?

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16 Dec 2012, 8:17 pm

01001011 wrote:

It is perfectly alright for practically anybody to carry a loaded gun in the public.

Only when someone starts shooting, the 'good guys' can start to think about stopping the shooter.

From a legal point of view that is not true in most States of the U.S. Carrying concealed (or even open) is generally not permitted. It is very difficult to get a permit to carry concealed and only slightly less difficult to carry open. In most places it is near impossible to get a small arms permit.

For long arms, it is somewhat easier. I had some rifles and permits to buy ammo when I lived in Massachusetts In New Jersey it would be very difficult. I had to sell my firearms when I moved to NJ because I had no way of transporting them legally.

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16 Dec 2012, 8:17 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

Once more, you make an irrelevant point (how ridiculously free speech is in America). You seem to do this a lot.

That's perhaps the saddest thing I've ever seen a 17 year old write.

How do the beat all the spirit out of them so young?

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16 Dec 2012, 8:20 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

You know most Europeans are also in favour of free speech?

Do you acknowledge that there is a cultural problem in America that leads to increased gun crime?

Nobody in America goes to jail for drawing a swastika or insulting the prophet Muhammed.

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16 Dec 2012, 8:26 pm

Dox47 wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

Once more, you make an irrelevant point (how ridiculously free speech is in America). You seem to do this a lot.

That's perhaps the saddest thing I've ever seen a 17 year old write.

How do the beat all the spirit out of them so young?

Misplaced nationalism. His country does this, therefor it is right. There was a time when I thought similarly about the War on Terror and thought Milwaukee was the greatest city on Earth. Perhaps he'll grow out of it.

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16 Dec 2012, 8:35 pm

Raptor wrote:

MakaylaTheAspie wrote:

:shrug:

It's the second amendment of the Constitution: "Right to bear arms." Though I'd rather have someone assessed for any signs of mental disturbance or anything else that could hinder their judgement.

This assessment would be an expensive and arbitrary infringement of a right.

Expensive? Gun owners can pay for their own assessment. Arbitrary? Hell no it aint! Letting every delusional, paranoid nutcase out there carry a gun is a wonderful recipe for problems. Reasonable levels of regulation are needed here, because an accident of birth does not immediately mean you are responsible, reasonable, and skilled enough to walk around with a gun in your pocket.

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