why do so many americans ...

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Kraichgauer
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26 Jan 2013, 9:25 pm

ruveyn wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

...have a pathological hatred and suspicion of government?

I think it is a source of mystery to the rest of the world.

The United States was conceived of and invented in terms of a revolution against a government deemed to be a tyranny. Ours was one of the few revolutions that did not devolve into terror and bloodshed (vide the French Revolution and the Russian Revolution). In our revolution a too powerful government was the Bad Guy. In modern times we have a Too Powerful Government and many Americans are suspicious of it and some are outright hostile. I, for one am. Our government has devolved into the very tyranny that our Founders fought against. The U.S. government is far to embroiled in the minute details of the lives of the people and is far to prone to pick the pockets of the tax payers for bad reasons. Also our government is still fighting the Forever War which we can no longer afford to fight and will be the ruination of the United States if continued.

And you wonder why? Maybe you ought to live here for a while and comprehend what core American values are. Europeans and Brits simply cannot manage to do that. We Americans are not like you Europeans or Brits in our deep heart of hearts.

It is a source of mystery because you cannot possibly think like U.S. people. It is and always will be beyond your comprehension. We take our liberty seriously on this side of the Atlantic and we don't trust our government all that much. Given the misuse of power and the level of corruption, can you blame us?

ruveyn

ruveyn

If you want to see tyranny at the hands of the United States government, you have to look no further than the presidency of one of the founding fathers, John Adams. Under his administration, there had been treason trials (no less for speaking badly of Adams), and a curtailing of the freedom of speech. Early America of the founders, deemed by tea baggers as the halcyon days of American liberty, was hardly idyllic. And that's not even taking into consideration how these same founding fathers deemed blacks to be not only private property, but only a third a person, Indians were the victims of genocide, while not only women, but also non-property owning white men were left disenfranchised by the law.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

ruveyn
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26 Jan 2013, 9:28 pm

Fnord wrote:

Karl Marx apparently believed that humans as a species could be forced to evolve away from their naturally selfish, greedy, and slothful nature in only a generation or two of hard labor. Obviously, history has proven him wrong.

Communism is an idealist's dream, and a realist's nightmare.

That is why the pseudo biologist Tryfkin Lysenko acheived so much power and influence under the Stalin Regime. Lysenko believed that the human germ line could be restructured by applying force to the human breeding population. It was the Lamarkian theory on steroids. As a theory it is just plain Wrong. That is a fact of nature. However Lysenko saw fit to see that biologists who taught real honest to god genetics were put in the Gulag. Lysenko had just the theory that Joe Stalin wanted. A way of turning our The New Soviet Man in a generation or two. The New Soviet Man would be the Perfect Collectivist, with no pesky ego or self interest getting in the way of the New Man to bring to perfection the True Revolution.

It was all nonsense and many good sound biologist died because of Lysenko and Stalin's Just Plain Wrong beliefs.

ruveyn

Sweetleaf
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26 Jan 2013, 9:33 pm

Fnord wrote:

That sounds like a sad excuse for sociopathic behavior, and history is currently proving the current pseudo-survivial of the fittest society is not doing so well itself. Also I thought humans fancied themselves to be more advanced animals than every other species, so why then are some so hellbent on sticking to basic animal behavior....I find it rather odd.

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Kraichgauer
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26 Jan 2013, 9:33 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Fnord wrote:

You gotta wonder how much of that Stalin actually believed. Was he really a communist fanatic, or did he just bend communist ideology to his will for the sake of absolute power over every single person in the Soviet Union?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Raptor
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26 Jan 2013, 9:33 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Raptor wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Quote:

I personally still like the idea of communism, a classless society I think that would solve a lot of problems.

How well do you think you'd fare in a gulag after being falsely accused and convicted of crimes against the state?
How about the "interrogations" that led to your confession?
How about government instituted famine?
Overcrowded living quarters?
The list goes on......
That IS the essence of real world communism.

I did say the idea of communism which does not include a state or a government running it. That is more the essence of real world corruption and facism. Besides one can already be falsely accused and convicted of crimes against the state here ideally that couldn't happen in communism.

Either way I don't see 'real world' capitalism doing much better than the 'real world' communism you describe.

Quote:

I did say the idea of communism which does not include a state or a government running it.

I went back and read it again and again and didn't see words to that effect. If you subscribe to communism just say so but in doing that you are advocating genocide since that's one of the bridges that has to be crossed to get us unwashed masses under the boot heel. Communism is as communism does. The US of A, for all our evilness, can't begin to hold a candle to the USSR and red China to name only a few......

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Fnord
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26 Jan 2013, 9:37 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Karl Marx apparently believed that humans as a species could be forced to evolve away from their naturally selfish, greedy, and slothful nature in only a generation or two of hard labor. Obviously, history has proven him wrong. Communism is an idealist's dream, and a realist's nightmare.

Humans are animals; and when they do aspire to anything, it usually involves personal gain in some form or another. THAT has not been evolved away in millions of years.

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Sweetleaf
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26 Jan 2013, 9:40 pm

Raptor wrote:

I like the idea of communism, that does not indicate anything about being in support of genocide which is certainly not something I'd advocate....that's just ridiculous. China and the USSR are not very good examples of what communism is supposed to be, they kind of ignored that whole classless society thing.

How you get advocating genocide out of someone saying they like the idea of a classless society or communism is beyond me, but believe what you want.

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Last edited by Sweetleaf on 26 Jan 2013, 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lotuspuppy
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26 Jan 2013, 9:42 pm

My theories:

1.) We were an anti-government nation from the start. We revolted against the British because we did not believe in central authority. It took 15 years after independence before we formed an effective central government, and even then, it was really more a collection of sovereign states in a currency and military union. "These United States" did not become "The United States" until just after the Civil War.

2.) Individualism and self reliance. This was especially true in frontier areas, although I think the entire nation shared this sentiment. You see, when you are 100km from the nearest human being, you better know how to fend for yourself. Same with an Italian bootblack in Manhattan trying to get business.

3.) The dismantling of the welfare state and organized labor. From the Great Depression until the late 1970s, the government could do no wrong. It won the war, became the protector of the free world, made the races equal, and was a big factor in raising Americans' standard of living. Alongside this was the rise of organized labor, which the government encouraged to keep corporations in check. All of this crumbled. Many grumble about evil Republicans who union bust, but I think it's deep structural changes in the economy. It's easy to have labor unions in factories, where workers are roughly equal factors of production with a known cost. It's harder in a service economy, where production varies greatly by employee, and people are just more mobile. Older Americans b***h we've lost community values, but I think we're really returning more to original cultural values from the 19th century.

4.) We are not a political nation. Politics do not fire us up. Many Americans appear uninformed, and they are. It's not fair to say the government or the media prefers that we are. Rather, most Americans go about their daily lives, and frankly, they have the luxury not to care about world or national events. Exceptions do exist, but they prove the rule.

Sweetleaf
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26 Jan 2013, 9:49 pm

Fnord wrote:

Humans are animals; and when they do aspire to anything, it usually involves personal gain in some form or another. THAT has not been evolved away in millions of years.

Its not always to do with personal gain specifically, and I think there are many things that could be seen as personal gain....being motivated by a personal gain does not always involve negative traits like greed, selfishness or a slothful nature. In ideal communism personal gain would be the benefits reaped from the labor put in....and the resources/wealth would be effectively divided in such a manner everyone is satisfied.

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ruveyn
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26 Jan 2013, 9:52 pm

lotuspuppy wrote:

4.) We are not a political nation. Politics do not fire us up. Many Americans appear uninformed, and they are. It's not fair to say the government or the media prefers that we are. Rather, most Americans go about their daily lives, and frankly, they have the luxury not to care about world or national events. Exceptions do exist, but they prove the rule.

Good point! Americans are culturally much more privatist than are Europeans or Brits. That is why pure socialism never fared well in the U.S. (thank god!). What we got was sort of a cobbled together neo fascist nanny state in which or the verbiage is still pro individual but in fact we are far too encumbered by the government run by a small elite.

Compared to the Ancient Classical Greek democracies (Athens in particular) Americans would have been rated as un-political idiots by such philosophers as Aristotle.

Americans are caught in a contradiction right now. We love our government benefits but we dislike our government and our politicians. Any American will tell you that Congress is the Whore House of the Potomac and every Congressman is a pimp except for his Congressman.

ruveyn

Fnord
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26 Jan 2013, 9:53 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

In ideal communism personal gain would be the benefits reaped from the labor put in....and the resources/wealth would be effectively divided in such a manner everyone is satisfied.

That is why "Ideal Communism" would never work; what you believe should satisfy my and what I know will satisfy me would likely never be the same.

Communism is just an excuse to take wealth away from the people who earned it and give it to the people who didn't.

When everybody is treated the same, no one is treated fairly.

ruveyn
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26 Jan 2013, 9:58 pm

Fnord wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

In ideal communism personal gain would be the benefits reaped from the labor put in....and the resources/wealth would be effectively divided in such a manner everyone is satisfied.

It would work only if humans were complete altruists which they most certainly are not. Push comes to shove I prefer the welfare of MY kids to the welfare of YOUR kids if there has to be an exclusive choice made.

ruveyn

Fnord
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26 Jan 2013, 10:10 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

In ideal communism personal gain would be the benefits reaped from the labor put in....and the resources/wealth would be effectively divided in such a manner everyone is satisfied.

That is why "Ideal Communism" would never work; what you believe should satisfy me and what I know will satisfy me would likely never be the same. Communism is just an excuse to take wealth away from the people who earned it and give it to the people who didn't. When everybody is treated the same, no one is treated fairly.

Same here - "Me and Mine First". Let us hope that it never comes to that.

Sweetleaf
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26 Jan 2013, 10:15 pm

Fnord wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

In ideal communism personal gain would be the benefits reaped from the labor put in....and the resources/wealth would be effectively divided in such a manner everyone is satisfied.

Actually everyone would be earning the 'wealth' though there likely would be no need for a financial system so not sure if the accumulated goods/resources or whatever would necessarily be wealth at least not of the financial sort. But its just an impossible idea anyways I don't see how a lack of a financial based hierarchy would be less fair.

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Jacoby
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26 Jan 2013, 10:32 pm

I suppose you can like the idea of egalitarianism and that everyone's needs are provided for them. I believe that's called heaven. However, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Communism in the real world results in enslavement and death where ever it has been implemented.

I wish I was tall, I don't wish everybody taller than me would die or be shipped of to some gulag.

ArrantPariah
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26 Jan 2013, 10:35 pm

Fnord wrote:

If "con" is the opposite of "pro", then what is the opposite of "Progress"?

Regress

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