'PC' BBC ignoring Harold Wilson's pipe in five-hour tribute

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I'll just add a little more regarding the decline of UK pubs...

When I was in my twenties, single and working in the UK; after work I'd often go to the pub with a bunch of work mates after work. We'd drive to a few pubs (in our own cars), sometimes on to a night club, sometimes on to a restaurant and finally we'd all drive to our separate homes; twenty miles or more apart. I can't even begin to think of the logistics of doing that nowadays if people adhere to the laws on drink driving. It would be a non-starter. Not something you could do on a whim at the end of a working day. The biggest losers in this situation are inevitably going to be the pubs and restaurants.

This interview happened shortly after 5 April 1976... Notice something? This pipe was part of his image.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBPfKQNdGDQ[/youtube]

Here in the Netherlands people have a simple solution: make sure you are shitfaced before you go to the pub. They buy beer at the store and drink that before going to the pub. 2 - 2,50 euros just isn't reasonable, and is very expensive for young people because the minimum wage for their age bracket is so ridiculously low.

According to the British Beer and Pub Association, in 2005 (the year of the smoking ban) about 102 pubs closed (before that, the rate of pubs closing per year were all around the same number - fluctuating slightly, but changing). In 2006, that number rose to 216 in 2006. In 2007, pubs started closing at a frankly astonishing rate - 1,409 pubs closed in that year. In 2008, we lost 1,973 pubs. In 2009, we lost 1,352 pubs and in 2010 we lost another 1,466 pubs. Pubs therefore closed at the fastest rate in British history. The rate of pub closures has been slowing a little from that massive onslaught, but compared to normative historical standards the rate of pub closures is still extremely high. And you can't really blame the recession for this, because in previous recessions pubs managed to keep going and in some cases did rather well. Pubs were still flourishing, because people still went out to have a drink. In many cases, people have simply abandoned pubs altogether. Now, you might say that the drink-drive ban had a lot to do with pub closures in the 1980s and 1990s but most of these pubs had already closed by the time of the smoking ban. Given that the rate of pubs closing before the smoking ban (and that there were no other major factors involved from one year to the next), I think it's fair to say that the smoking ban was the thing that broke the camel's back. I think the way they chose to implement the ban was quite vindictive and selfish - in many other countries people either have completely ignored the ban, or have signed into law various exemptions and exceptions, or have decisively rejected full smoking bans after introducing partial ones (Swiss voters overwhelmingly rejected a full smoking ban after it was yet again put to the electorate by the Swiss equivalent of ASH), or have circumstances that somewhat mitigate the effects of the smoking ban (it's not usually so much of a problem having to smoke outside in, say, Malta or Cyprus).



That is a big problem but, not IMO, the main one. Drinking decent beer at home isn't exactly cheap you know! The equivalent of a pint of Oakham Citra (4.8%) would still cost me around £2.20 (€2.65) in the supermarket. The cost of other beers is pretty much the same. Buying a beer like that in a pub (many pubs won't serve beers like this because they're simply a touch too strident and challenging, so they're relegated to the real ale pubs) would cost me around £3.20 (€3.60) or sometimes more usually. My local (which is cheaper than the national average) charges £2.80 (€3.25) per pint, but the beer is often not particularly good as it's not well-kept and the pub itself is entire quiet and cheerless or full of people that you don't know and are probably best avoiding anyway.

The whole dynamic of pubs has changed. Cost is one of the issues but I don't think it holds up (people are more than willing to spend silly money like £4 (€4.65) in town for a small bottle of lager or whatever it costs for shots, and then go and fight and puke up. I mean, even pubs that are remarkably cheap often fail to pick up a lot of custom. I think the real issue is that many people simply feel that pubs don't offer a good experience, or value for money any more. Other things have taken their toll: homes are a lot more comfortable than pubs these days, and many people would rather watch TV than go out in the freezing weather.

If you go down to London, the price of beer can be ridiculous. £3.50 (€4.06) or more is common in many pubs, and in many places you're looking at that for a pint of really crap, cold lager. I prefer to drink at home simply because the environment is more convivial. I'd love to go out drinking, but most of the pubs themselves have changed. They're still technically pubs but the atmosphere is completely different. There are still a number of places where you can get decent beer (a very decent pint in one of the pubs in my town can be had for £2.19 [€2.54]) but the actual atmosphere is 'plasticky' and unwelcoming, with football blaring out of the speakers, with a definite yobbish character to the clientele. Plus, it feels like a nasty and generic chain pub (and looks like it too) No thanks.



Yup - even the price of a decent fish and chips is not cheap these days either. You're looking at around £5 (€5.81) or more for fish and chips. So you can imagine that going around the town centre will not be cheap - say £4 to get into the town (and back) itself, say around £20 for drinks and then another £5 or so for fish and chips - you're talking £30 (€34.88) straight off per person. It's not a cheap thing to be doing and if you're a smoker, you're pretty much excluded from everywhere anyway by law. They can't even legally offer their customers a decent shelter outside or perhaps a separate smoking room with air cleansing facilities.

As for curry houses and 'all in one' fast food type places - they're very popular. In fact, these days, they seem to be more popular than the traditional British fish and chip restaurant - there are certainly more of them!



I remember as a teenager drinking in the pub for the first time, that the price of a pint was under £2 (€2.30) in many places. As you say, it's rocketed by 50% in less than ten years. A lot of that is due to the beer duty and other taxes, as well as the pub companies trying to bleed landlords dry.



At least as much as (if not more) drinking is now done in the home rather than at pubs. When people do go out for a drink, they tend to stay not as long and drink less. My dad still goes out and drinks three or four pints, but I think his lot are a dying breed. I do still go to pubs occasionally but I generally have to have a reason to go these days.



My mum used to regularly drive to busy food and beer pubs in the sticks, drink five pints and then drive home. It was seen as normal.

Now, of course, I think people have completely gone the other way. Instead of drinking far too much at the wheel, people are terrified to drink anything at all - not even a pint of sub-4% bitter with a considerable lunch. This means that whilst they may have taken friends out for a drink or two and a meal, none of them will go anywhere and if they do go anywhere, it will be to urban places.



The denormalisation campaigns were happening though, even in the 1970s:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUPkirbfKSg[/youtube]



I think that that depends where you're drinking and driving. If you live in a very rural area, the chances of you killing someone aren't as great as if you live in an urban region.

In Ireland, for instance, drink driving still seems to be commonplace largely because many people live in urban areas and if they didn't drink and drive, there wouldn't be pub for them to go and drink in given the distances involved.



Even for the routes going to the villages in my small town, you're talking every two hours for a bus. It's just not feasible.



I looked this up. Just to go a few short miles, you're looking at £50 (€58) for the lot of you in my locality.



And the smoking ban. I believe that the smoking ban and the prices of drinks in pubs are the real culprits. To add to that, I think you have a public increasingly disinterested in drinking full-stop anyway.

Last edited by Tequila on 14 Feb 2013, 4:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

That's called 'pre-loading' and is popular all over Northern Europe these days. Many people have a couple of pints now before they even go out to the pub/on the town and, in the case of the Northern European countries, it's pretty much a necessity given the obscene taxes on beer in those countries.

That won't often work in the UK because even some pubs (especially large chained ones like Wetherspoons and Brannigans) have doormen and wont let you in if you cant walk in a straight line.

Yes it would. Having had two or three pints beforehand does not equal trying to get into a pub once you're paralytic.

I didn't watch any of the programming. All I saw of it was a mention last night on the news at 10. The picture behind the newsreader as she announced it contained Wilson brandishing his pipe prominently.