Feminists versus MRA's at Toronto College

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Semantics are a waste of my time, and considering your conduct so far, you are in absolutely no position to be giving pointers on the depth of anybody's arguments.

^
Vigi, I'm seeing a lot of assertions and ad hominem from you, but not much in the way of an actual rebuttal here. Someone mirroring your argument and applying it to different situation in order to point out a flaw is not trolling you, and you're diminishing yourself by acting so defensive rather than just answering the critique, IMHO.

While I've not been terribly impressed by the MRA movement, I've been even less impressed by the reaction of many in the feminist community, who seem to begrudge the MRA groups their very existence. To pick just one point, I don't think I've ever seen a thread on feminism on WP where there haven't been multiple complaints by feminists about being generalized or stereotyped, and yet the very same posters don't hesitate to do the exact thing they're complaining about to the MRA community, among other things. Kinda hypocritical...

Yeah alright there Doxy. Next time we debate something, perhaps I'll see how you enjoy having your words copy pasted, rearranged and sent at you repeatedly. As if tit for tat mimicry is a good argumentative device. You should know better than to defend such an obvious fallacy and amateur trolling. This is what I have come to expect from "Men's Rights Activists", when they aren't sending me threats or questioning my sexuality for not siding with them. But I expect better from you.

A huge proportion of "MRA" posters seem to get banned from here for extremely bad behavior, including harassment and threats of violence. You just do not see this from the feminists here, even if some aren't very good arguers. I don't know if it is an inaccurate generalization in this case

If Dox says something with so much bald assertion and ad hominem, and he gets it thrown back in his face using such a simple technique, and the response actually makes sense at all, then he will have gotten what he deserves. It seems unlikely he'll give you such an opening, but if he does, by all means take advantage of it.


It's entirely adequate to debunk bald assertions. Saying, "that's a bald assertion" also works, but is less interesting.


Is Greb an MRA? All I see him doing in this thread is debunking fallacious arguments. You don't have to be an MRA to debunk fallacious arguments.

If Dox were interested in debunking fallacious arguments, he would perhaps have taken issue with Greb's statements such as "Most feminist groups make it quite clear men are oppressors" which is besides being a "bald assertion" is a "bald-faced lie", feminist groups address the concept of patriarchy, which is rightfully seen as limiting the rights of males as well as females. MRAs are almost exclusively focused on treating feminism as an existential threat no matter what they say on their web pages. I would not call that a focus on men's rights but rather an ideological opposition

Either way, you are both defending an intellectually lazy style of debate. Bravo boys

Hearing a message and paying attention to the message are completely different things.

There are plenty of religious groups that I've never even heard of, and if they engaged me in polite conversation about their religion, I'd pay attention to what they had to say. If a group like the Westbro "Baptist" "Church" were screaming some nonsense at me, I might not be able to avoid hearing it, but I would not take it at all seriously.

Really, I don't think that being calm and polite hurt your chances of being listened to.

Agreed, though one can be polite and still intractable



I want to come back to this line, because it is a prime demonstration of how you lack interest in actual content and play entirely in the field of semantics. In Ancalagon's opinion, asserting that an assertion is an assertion is a great way to debunk an assertion. No talk of making counter-assertions. "You made an assertion, therefore I win" < This was a fun line wasn't it?

Greb put all of the bald assertion arguments that he threw back at you in quotes, most likely because he does not completely agree with them. For all I know, he could be an ardent feminist who happened to be annoyed by bald assertions.


Here you're not just making a bald assertion, you're making stuff up and saying they think it.


Uh-huh. 'Cause bald assertions are so intellectually strenuous.

I would not expect an objective, honest viewpoint from you regardless of whether I am in the right. You clearly have a personal issue with me which is why you jump in to every other discussion I am involved in and argue about meta-topics and semantics instead of addressing a single thing I say. It is comical really. You also have absolutely no problem making assertions of your own but blast anybody else. Hypocrite much? Or are you just having some fun messing with someone you don't like?

Note that there has not been a single counter to what I have said, twisting words in an illogical fashion is not a rebuttal. In my experience when people are unable to argue with what you have to say they resort to the behavior Ancalagon excels at

Semantics is the study of meaning. Accusing me of paying attention to the meaning of things is the opposite of accusing me of lacking interest in actual content.

If I thought your answer would be anything but more insults, I'd ask you what you were really getting at.


Don't tell me what I think.


More like "Just saying so doesn't make it so."


You're completely missing the point. There doesn't need to be a counter, because all you've bothered to do is just say it is so.


This is false. Since the last time we butted heads and you went out of your way to insult me, I have deliberately avoided you. It's been a pretty long while, too.

Your interest in semantics has consistently been to manipulate meaning rather than illuminate it. Take for example how you have ignored responding to 90% of everything I have said



You'll pretty much refer to anything I say as "insults" while simultaneously insulting me so that doesn't mean much. Cry me a river



LOL. You clearly stated that in the text I originally quoted, so obviously it is your opinion. I am in no way putting any words in your mouth or "telling you what you think". If you want to get even more tedious than usual, I will even post a screenshot of your statement



BS. You know exactly what you said. What your real problem is is that you don't agree with me but are too lazy or incompetent to demonstrate it through an actual exchange of ideas. So instead you take issue with me voicing my opinion. Meanwhile you repeatedly make assertions of your own...



I'm glad you finally admit you have contributed absolutely no points or anything of value to this discussion, it is a step in the right direction



That's because I have been absent here for a while, I have a job and school that keep me away. I tend to be active for brief periods of time, and you always stop "deliberately avoiding me" during those periods of time. So you can continue the charade for all I care, but we both know why you got involved in this thread, and as usual it had nothing to do with the topic and everything with your animosity towards me for whatever reasons. If you ever want to deal with that, feel free to PM me. I don't bite. Or keep up the passive aggressive following. Whatever fills your keg

I don't think the point is for you to enjoy or not enjoy the experience, but rather to try and get you to see a flaw in your reasoning by applying it to different topics; a variation on the argument ad absurdum. It's no different than stripping the spin off of someone's statement and presenting it with an "in other words". You're welcome to try it on me, but I don't think you'll get the result you're looking for.



But it's not an obvious fallacy, as I demonstrated above; you have notably failed to do anything but proclaim it to be so, which is why you're getting flack from me and others. You're mischaracterizing what was said, apparently based more on your distaste for MRA groups than on the actual content being presented.



Supports my hypothesis above. See how I supported my assertion there rather than just insisting it's so because I said so? That's not what you're doing.
Condescension intentional, and earned.



Likewise, Vig, likewise.

And? I'll bet a lot of them were white, shall we stereotype the whole race as well? How about Republicans? Religious people? Men? All groups with wide MRA overlap; must make it okay to broad brush them.

We also have two ardent feminists on the mod team, which I'm sure has nothing at all to do with how discipline is meted out and who gets the axe vs who gets a pass...



And? My point is that some of the feminists complain of being stereotyped, and then turn around and stereotype a group they don't like. I say that's hypocritical. You're defense is that... in your experience, the stereotype is true. The problem is the part in bold, the sample size isn't big enough for you to make that sweeping generalization.

I'll give you a personal example. I went to majority black elementary and middle schools, and was treated quite poorly, to say the least. I can honestly say, that in my experience, the majority of black people I've personally dealt with are racist a**holes, and I'm not wrong per my lifetime average. See the problem yet?

I'll take you up on your surprising PM offer, since this thread has already been sidetracked more than enough.

However, there were a couple of severe inaccuracies that I can't just let stand.

The only thing I've said that was close to an insult in this thread was, "If I thought your answer would be anything but more insults". That was after you started insulting me, not before.

The direct insults you've made against me in this thread include "tedious", "lazy", "incompetent", "hypocrite", "I would not expect an objective, honest viewpoint from you", and "you lack interest in actual content".


I said no such thing. The statement wasn't long, so the only reason I can see for you misunderstanding this is not knowing what a "bald assertion" is. Look it up if you have to.


I said no such thing.