Supremes to decide on contraceptive coverage

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How do you think the Supreme Court will decide?
In favor of requiring businesses to cover contraception for employees 82%  82%  [ 9 ]
Against requiring businesses to cover contraception for employees 18%  18%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 11

ArrantPariah
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26 Nov 2013, 10:12 pm

And, for the sake of those who felt misled by the topic title:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZAWSiWtUK2s[/youtube]



lotuspuppy
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26 Nov 2013, 10:40 pm

This is pretty damn tough. On the one hand, the Court has already ruled in Citizens United that a corporation has personhood. On the other hand, the personhood is fundamentally limited. A corporation can exercise free speech by deciding on whom to support monetarily, and that speech is a very real action. A corporation, as I see it, has no way of exercising a religion. A corporation cannot pray, attend worship services, or give part in any other form of religious expression. The complaint would be perfectly valid if this were a sole proprietorship, where the owner and the business were the same entity. As it stands, though, I have trouble believing anyone's rights are being violated here. Remember, if the owners really objected, they could always sell the corporation.



Schneekugel
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27 Nov 2013, 5:25 am

I wouldnt think of it as an part of automatic health care, but if you cant afford it (students, without work, too low income) I think you should be supported to receive them. If condoms are already to expensive, then the situation wont be enhanced by raising a kid.



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27 Nov 2013, 7:20 am

There is also the problem of precedence.

If an employer can deny coverage for one particular aspect of health care (contraception) on religious grounds, why should this not apply to religious objections against other aspects of health care as well?

- Can a company owned by a Jehova's Witness deny coverage for employees of any health care that involves the use of blood transfusions?
- Can a company owned by a Scientologist deny coverage for employees of any health care that involves psychiatric treatment?
- Can a company owned by someone who believes in faith healing deny coverage for employees of any and all health care?

Or to quote the dissenting opinion in Hobby Lobby vs. Sebelius (the case currently before SCOTUS)

And its ultimate holding, which is unprecedented, is sufficiently ambiguous that neither the majority nor anyone else can confidently predict where it may lead, particularly when one considers how easily an "exercise of religion” could now be asserted by a corporation to avoid or take advantage of any governmental rule or requirement.

Source: http://www.ca10.uscourts.gov/opinions/12/12-6294.pdf (page 109)



sonofghandi
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27 Nov 2013, 7:47 am

lotuspuppy wrote:
This is pretty damn tough. On the one hand, the Court has already ruled in Citizens United that a corporation has personhood. On the other hand, the personhood is fundamentally limited. A corporation can exercise free speech by deciding on whom to support monetarily, and that speech is a very real action. A corporation, as I see it, has no way of exercising a religion. A corporation cannot pray, attend worship services, or give part in any other form of religious expression. The complaint would be perfectly valid if this were a sole proprietorship, where the owner and the business were the same entity. As it stands, though, I have trouble believing anyone's rights are being violated here. Remember, if the owners really objected, they could always sell the corporation.


The way I see it, if a corporation is a "person," then that "person" cannot impose their religious values on anyone, especially when it comes to telling employees that they can't use birth control because God doesn't like it.


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GGPViper
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27 Nov 2013, 8:03 am

Those who want contraception exempted from coverage might also face a slight challenge in SCOTUS... From none other than Antonin Scalia.

"The rule respondents favor would open the prospect of constitutionally required religious exemptions from civic obligations of almost every conceivable kind -- ranging from compulsory military service, to the payment of taxes, to health and safety regulation such as manslaughter and child neglect laws, compulsory vaccination laws, drug laws and traffic laws, to social welfare legislation such as minimum wage laws, child labor laws, animal cruelty laws, environmental protection laws, and laws providing for equality of opportunity for the races. The First Amendment's protection of religious liberty does not require this." (references omitted by me)

- Employment Division v. Smith (1990), opinion delivered by justice Scalia

Sources:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/h ... 72_ZO.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employment ... n_v._Smith
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/how-sca ... ntrol-rule

So...

The Master Troll wrote:
But, I would also expect the 4 weenies who voted against Obamacare also to vote against the contraception mandate.

That would be somewhat difficult for Scalia, due to the above. I wouldn't be surprised if the tried to come up with some sort of excuse, though...



zer0netgain
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27 Nov 2013, 8:20 am

If you can't afford the price of contraception, you shouldn't be having sex.

For Pete's sake, condoms aren't that expensive. You have no right to force someone to pay for the most expensive contraceptive option on the market.



Schneekugel
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27 Nov 2013, 8:38 am

zer0netgain wrote:
If you can't afford the price of contraception, you shouldn't be having sex.

For Pete's sake, condoms aren't that expensive. You have no right to force someone to pay for the most expensive contraceptive option on the market.


When I was a student, condoms were not that cheap, so they costed around 1$/piece, and you cant recycle them. ^^ As an hormondriven teenager, thats easily 4-5$ each night. ^^ I agree that you hardly can force buying condoms on someone, the problem is, that at least every social thinking being will feel forced himself to support a kid, with at least whats necessary for living. I dont need to be math genius, to calculate, that supporting some condoms for people who cant afford them, is actually cheaper then supporting some children of people who cant afford them. ^^



GGPViper
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27 Nov 2013, 9:14 am

zer0netgain wrote:
If you can't afford the price of contraception, you shouldn't be having sex.
For Pete's sake, condoms aren't that expensive. You have no right to force someone to pay for the most expensive contraceptive option on the market.

The type of contraceptives promoted by Obamacare (intrauterine devices - IUD) are amongst the cheapest in the long run (a single device lasts 5 years or more), and one of the most effective reversible contraceptives (with a failure rate as low as 0.2 percent - that's lower than female sterilization).

The upfront costs are higher - which is why lower income individuals will have difficulty in paying the costs - but isn't that the entire point why people have health insurance?

Sources:
http://www.acog.org/About_ACOG/News_Roo ... _Available
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison ... ison_table



ArrantPariah
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27 Nov 2013, 10:29 am

I don't think that any health insurance plan covers condoms, because they can be purchased without a prescription.



Schneekugel
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27 Nov 2013, 10:50 am

UID dont need prescription as well. At least mine did not.



lotuspuppy
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27 Nov 2013, 11:13 am

sonofghandi wrote:
lotuspuppy wrote:
This is pretty damn tough. On the one hand, the Court has already ruled in Citizens United that a corporation has personhood. On the other hand, the personhood is fundamentally limited. A corporation can exercise free speech by deciding on whom to support monetarily, and that speech is a very real action. A corporation, as I see it, has no way of exercising a religion. A corporation cannot pray, attend worship services, or give part in any other form of religious expression. The complaint would be perfectly valid if this were a sole proprietorship, where the owner and the business were the same entity. As it stands, though, I have trouble believing anyone's rights are being violated here. Remember, if the owners really objected, they could always sell the corporation.


The way I see it, if a corporation is a "person," then that "person" cannot impose their religious values on anyone, especially when it comes to telling employees that they can't use birth control because God doesn't like it.

Well, not quite. A sole proprietor can choose to not cover contraceptives, as s/he has sufficient agency to practice free exercise. A corporation does not. That is the distinction I'm making. Remember, no one is imposing religious views here, for employees have agency to work for someone else.