Sexism is still going strong

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Actually, my opinion of a 30-year-old female virgin is more along the lines of 'brainwashed by religion into missing out on something good for a decade.' I don't know of anyone, other than a patriarchal religionist (and some PUAs), who thinks that a female virgin is inherently a good thing - certainly not most feminists. I don't think that a sixteen year old boy should be having sex any more than I think that a sixteen year old girl should be having sex.
As for women who cheat on their husbands 'scratching an itch,' I have never talked to anyone besides yourself who espouses this view for women and not men. There are people (usually men) who are into open marriages and polyamory, but in my experience they've always been equal-opportunity for both genders. OTOH, the religionists (again) think that men need sex with multiple people and women don't, and seem to think that a man who cheats on his wife is just falling prey to his natural urges, whereas a woman who does so is a freak of nature who is deliberately sabotaging her own marriage to hurt her husband.


This is true. However, it does not follow that there are equal amounts of sexism against both genders, nor that both genders are equally affected by sexism.


Sure he can. And if he has an unwanted zef in his body, he can have it removed.
It does suck, I can truly see that, but I don't know how to solve the problem without being unfair to the pregnant woman or the future child. I could see granting a 'financial abortion' if he pays for half of the cost of an abortion within the first trimester (whether the woman actually ends up getting one or not), where he's no longer considered the legal parent of that zef, but a manipulative (or a very un-self-aware woman (like many teenage girls), or one with irregular menses (like many teenage girls), or one whose menses don't completely stop), might not inform him until after the first trimester, at which point choosing to abort becomes pretty problematic on her part as well as his.


Divorce laws in most states are gender neutral now. To the extent that women are favored for custody after divorce, it's usually because the woman was the primary caretaker of the kids before the divorce, an it's seen as better for the kids to remain with their primary caretaker. If more men took the initiative to be more active in caring for their kids, more men would get custody... and that is one area where men ARE facing active discrimination: the idea that men are incapable of caring for and loving their children, and/or that men who choose to be primary caretakers are somehow 'less masculine' than other men.

No, he isn't. Men are not fat-shamed and mocked the way that women are, and men are not driven to literal starvation to the degree that women are.
http://www.anad.org/news/eating-disorde ... ach-state/

That's the flip side of the patriarchal expectation that the woman needs to stay home with the kids, climbing the walls from boredom.

Yeah, I agree with you completely on this one. People in general, and men in particular, are grinding themselves into dust against the grindstone in the current 'work' culture.

Thank you

Oh, I assumed you had read the survey. I was referring to a particular sub-section (S1-S6 - Society and Culture) of the survey which leads with that question and gets progressively worse. The report based on the survey ignores large sections of its own data, narrowly focussing on those parts that could be construed as supporting their claims. For example:



The survey does not establish incidence of sexist comments. In fact the question asked of the 16-21 year old girls was "[have you ever] had sexist comments made about you", yet they seem to be suggesting this is proof of common occurrence. Based purely on my own adolescent experiences, this percentage seems quite low in the context in which it is presented.

Importantly, there is no basis for claiming the report is proof of inequality in the absence of a similar survey for boys of the same age-range. Nor would such a report necessarily be proof of anything.

Eating disorders are a females reaction to weight so it's obviously going to be one sided. Men are expected to go out and lose weight via the gym. Men are fat shamed. Maybe u don't see it because u must think it should come only come from women or something, but men fat shame other men. Women certainly know the difference between a fat/skinny guy and one with muscles too. Your views are one sided, they're about what u think is acceptable for men from your point of view, but that's not the full reality. Men are equally accepting of different weights of women but they will not accept low standards from other men before they're looking down their nose at you.


I hear it said " first world problems" when people are bothered about silly western things that aren't that important. I will say " white women's problems" to give u an idea how pathetic it is to complain about something men could only dream of.

Are u kidding me? Do u know how many men wish they could be sitting at home climbing the walls through nothing to do?

Men have spent the entire of human history going out and doing what needs to be done to survive, and from their point of view, to spare the ones they value, and feminists treat it like it's some kind if punishment. Life isn't about work. No guy treats work as freedom, they treat it as a trap they can't get out of. Enter females, "playing" at working. Do you know how offensive that is?

What's gone wrong in the world where you're jealous of something men don't even want to do?

Men spend their entire childhoods dreading going to work. You get one small bit of freedom, then u reach adulthood and you're a slave for life.

You have no idea whats it's like to live in a world where there are no excuses allowed. Women can always slope off and make an excuse. You work but there's always somewhere to escape to if u want, socially acceptable places like child birth and just plain housewife. Men unemployed are scum.

We see it in courts every day, somehow the crimes females commit are not as bad and to be forgiven. Because society has low expectations of females when it suits them.

Females working is just a power play. Like the way they have to have their opinions made known in every aspect of a males life and interests. You never think of things this way do you? Too busy buried in your own self interests. Men do not get life easy by any stretch and now u even blame men for that. There's no end of sexism against men these days. Women get their cake and eat it, all the good from being male is gone and we just get crap.

Crap like this article. We're not in the 1970s, most men don't even remember a time when it was acceptable to be sexist, but we're still getting punished for it even now. Most of the feminists arguments are massively outdated but they never stop pushing for more power.

The truth is, apart from the bad stories, women have always had power. They always always have. Stop with this poor women downtrodden thing when it's a family to family thing. Yes as example, Muslim women CAN be in bad situations, but how many families are completely female dominated in the world, even in the Muslim world? It happens. Home is the female domain in Muslim culture. I have met plenty of super bossy, super outspoken female Muslims and that is not a rare thing. Now imagine our own culture in times gone by, just because females didn't have the rule of law behind them, do u really think that it made a difference to most people? Do u think homosexuality didn't exist because there were laws against it? Females have always had a considerable amount of power in the world, law recognised or not.

Men have lost a lot of power in their own lives, and things are better now for females than the ever have been. Please stop pushing things all the time. Its bad enough that most males believe your patriarchal society nonsense. When will it ever stop? Until you have as full a control over the whole world as you do most homes? Cuz women are really fair when it comes to the home right? We're looking forward to the kind of world where most is ordered to female preferences and men get this little shed out back.

If we could get the developing world to western standards, then hold for a generation, all sexism will be eradicated. The lessons we've learned just need time to sink in, the changes needed have already been made. So drop the subject unless u want to help the developing world, pushing past this point is only breeding resentment.

Oh, unless u want to talk female sexism against males, but males usually just accept and don't worry about it.

Like head games females play. The other half to physical abuse is mental abuse in the form of headgames. Making men jealous to get attention as an example. It genuinely hurts but no one ever wants to talk about underhand types of abuse.

Men fat-shame both women and other men, then, more than women fat-shame men or each other; that's not 'men being equally accepting of different weights.' Can you not see the internal contradiction in your own statement?


Eyeahhh, men dream of staying at home all day? Really? When they do end up at home, half the time they end up on the couch watching tv and drinking beer all day. Women used to dream about going to work, too. The point is that both genders need a balance; neither men nor women should get all of the play-time or the work-time with the kids, and neither men nor women should get all of the intellectual stimulation and the frustration that comes with a job.

As for complaining about 'first-world issues,' yeah: I live in the first world. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make things better for both men and women; wanting things here to be better doesn't mean that I'm not well aware that things are worse elsewhere. As far as race goes, this isn't a black/white/hispanic/asian thing.

see above.

so have women. Do you think that the Victorian 'woman-as-ornament' idea was some sort of cultural or temporal universal?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter-gatherer

Do you know where the term 'white elephant' originated? It was a sacred gift meant to bankrupt the recipient. Doing nothing but hang out at home all day is, for many people, a punishment.

Eyeahhhhh..... 'cause women never 'have' to work? 'Cause women don't take their jobs seriously? 'Cause, say, women doctors aren't real doctors, women managers aren't real managers, women bus drivers aren't real bus drivers?

I think that you're the one who doesn't get it.


None of the men i work with (health care) have this kind of attitude. They, like me, went into the field because they were called to it. Neither my father (an engineer) nor my brother (an architect) has this attitude.
Maybe you just need to find a doctor wife and be a house-husband. It's not unheard of, and it sounds like you'd be happiest in a role like that.

ORLY? 'Yeah, I didn't get the test results on that trauma patient, Doc, I was to busy painting my nails...' Is that how you think it goes?
Hint: it's not.

Here's something you apparently don't know: most women give birth, and then go back to work. As for men being viewed as 'scum' when they're unemployed, I agree, that's a problem... but it's not the feminists who are saying that. Feminists are saying that they wished that men stayed home more, that they helped with the kids and the house more, not less.

No, society has *stereotypes* of women as fundamentally good and men as fundamentally bad, so it assumes that a woman who committed a crime had a better excuse for doing so than a man committing the same crime. Not good, but not quite the same thing as what you're saying.


*snort*
At this point, I think that I just need to stop responding and just repost your own words. You could have come straight out of ManBoobz.

Pobresito. You poor menz should just get together and abandon all the evil womenz! Buy yourselves some real-dolls, and form your own society where you can do your own real work with no interference from the horrible, harpy-like women.
We'd all be happier if you did, you included, from the sound of it.

*snerk*



How old are you, even? Have you even gone through high school history?

cant really be arsed to reply with quotes, no offence. Its got too picky for me to enjoy now, maybe it would be easier if i was talking to you one on one and then i could be answering each point as and when you make them rather than loads of points requiring loads of points all in one, with the whole thing getting bigger and bigger like some kind of mountain.

you really need to consider that you sound very middle class to me though. work is a whole different subject when you get to pick and choose the work you do. Most people dont. Work is a serious subject when you have to work to survive.

maybe I'm thinking about the fact that im x generation miner stock. I certainly know what my ancestors were doing in Victorian times. What I call work, and has been until very recently true for generations of my family on both sides, was back breaking work that would take away your life. I was talking to someone today, 4th generation miner, and he was telling me how at 60 he was surprised to still be alive. My grandad is 75 and when I mentioned to the guy i spoke to that he's still alive he said it was good going.

have u ever read this book? http://www.george-orwell.org/The_Road_to_Wigan_Pier
It would give you a whole different perspective on what it means to work to survive in times gone by, and the sacrifices males have made for the world.

I think with regards to fat shaming, what i was trying to say was that if theres any group fat shaming more than others, its men fat shaming men and women fat shaming women. Women automatically get a lot more leeway by men, and i think men get more leeway from women.

The reality is that males arent as bothered by females as they are by other males. Men are other mens rivals, and women are other womens rivals, and in the same way that women arent nearly as harsh about men, men arent as harsh about women. So dont be blaming men because female standards for themselves are unrealistic. Eating disorders have got nothing to do with male sexism.

if women are driven to the point of literal starvation thats womens own stupid fault and its more to do with other women than what men see and like.

Ive read blogs about women and breast size, and how they feel because of having small breasts, and they all seem to think its male attitudes that drives them to have low self esteem over the issue. Believe me, its not, womens own attitudes and projection onto what they think males think have far more to do with the reason they have less self esteem. Its comparing yourself to other women that make women starve themselves, men dont notice things like that to anywhere near the degree that women do.

nah, i dont think thats quite right. its not about stereotypes of men being bad and women being good. Its that when a male does something wrong he's expected to fully grasp the situation, where women can be thought of as not knowing the full consequences of what they're doing. Which is often played upon.

which comes down to the whole men not having any excuses in the world and women always having something to retreat to.

look, whatever. I just think that women are a naturally controlling sex. They like to have their say in everything, even the things that dont interest them.

They are well past the point where things are fine as they are. The laws are in place, attitudes are changing, so just leave it and stop trying to control not only laws but other peoples minds. I personally dont give a crap what people think as long as they follow the rules. You actually do want to control male minds as well as the rules.

i cant even remember what the point was anymore. I dont think women with their equal rights push that should have stopped pushing a while back know either.

ive had the thought in the past that women dont even know that the things they push for are a males idea of what being a female is about. Feminism is such a male way of seeing the world. It's like the females that are nearest to the males in thinking got control of female minds somewhere in the past and real females and their attitudes got left behind.

Things like laws, why do u even care when theyre a male idea and thing that women for the most part ignore as and when it pleases them? If i was a woman i wouldnt be interested in working at all. I would think of the male world, pfff, bunch of idiots, climbing mountains and inventing stupid things when the world is fine as it is.

the womans world existed outside of laws once. They did what they wanted, they were interested in what they wanted, and then somehow the wish to be male-like overwhelmed them. Its like you got so caught up in things that you thought you needed that you forgot who you are.

its like aspies here that are quite often not even that interested in friends when it comes down to it. They spend so long worrying about what they're missing though that they forget that aspies are much more loner type of people. If someone asked them if they wanted to go out and do something they would probably say no and stay at home and do their own thing. But tell them they cant go out and do friend things and they suddenly want friends and its the thing that defines their existence. Its like a reverse psychology thing. tell them they cant have it and it changes who they are because they get caught up in wanting something they never even wanted.

Real females to me are interested in the things that please them and feel no need to justify themselves to the male world. They dont care about beating males at their own stupid game.

i mean, its right that women should have free right to do what they want, for the ones that do actually want to live a more male life existence. But people really need to wake up to the things that make them happy and the way of living that feels more natural. Feminism is a lie on so many levels. It takes women that were perfectly happy doing their own thing and makes them feel theyre missing something by not working when theyre not.

You even managed to get me caught up in the idea that women should be just like men for a bit before i realised what you were doing. You know its ok to just not do anything right? To enjoy your life? To have babies and have a family and not care about society pushing you to be some kind of successful female. How much of the way you live is truly down to you?

I didn't see a link to the survey in the OP, but the questions don't seem as bad to me as they do to you; however, the above is a very valid point.

@woodster,why do we need to have babies?Is a woman going to feel unfulfilled if she doesn't?

Yeahhh, most people don't have a middle-class American's level of choices, but it follows neither that all middle-class Americans are ignorant about what work is like, nor that people have no choice at all. I came up through the public education system just like almost everyone else did.

Yes, mining is dangerous, dirty work.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1842womenminers.asp
http://www.womeninworldhistory.com/coalMine.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_S ... ctory_fire
https://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/rschw ... es/33.html
http://www.womeninworldhistory.com/lesson7.html


Pobresitos. Ever been to a colonial or a frontier cemetery? "Died in childbirth. Died in childbirth. Died in Childbirth. Died in Childbirth. Died in Childbirth. Died in Childbirth." Nine out of ten women in the ground died in childbirth (usually after a dozen or so pregnancies), in at least one cemetery in the Columbia River Gorge, Oregon; it's rare to find one who made it to her 50's.
Don't pretend that men are the only ones who worked hard, or the only ones who sacrificed. All of our ancestors had a hellish time, up to about the last century.

I see and hear a hell of a lot more fat-shaming of women by men, than I do by other women. For that matter, I see a lot of men talking about how a woman's only worth is in whether or not she is sexually attractive to that particular male, to the degree that he can't even be bothered to pay attention to anything she says if she's not 'sexy.'

Hookay, I'll just leave that one as it is...

You've never seen a man's head turn when a big-breasted woman walks by? Never heard men talking about 'jugs' or 'knockers' or 'racks,' or seen them holding their hands in front of their torsos as if they had a cantaloupe in either palm? Watch a little popular television sometime.

Do you have any evidence to back that up? That people in general think that women in general have no agency, nor awareness of the consequences of an action more than, say, a dog chewing up the couch?

*snort*
Which is why there are so many women in positions of power today: CEOs, high-level managers, state-wide and national politicians... oh, wait...

*snort*
If you don't give a crap what other people think, then why the hell are you on an internet forum arguing with me? The entire point of being here is to bang memes together.


'cause you know alllllll about what women are really like, eh?


Why does it matter what gender you are? Like I said before, find yourself a lady doctor to marry who wants a house-husband.

ORLY? Tell me, when was this magical time when women were above the law?


*snort*
Effing christ, do you have any idea what you sound like? Women 'forgot who we are'? Because 'the angel in the house' is some sort of true representation of women, eh? Newsflash: Women are people. We're not all that different from men. Men aren't all that different from us. We're not idiots, we're not saints, we are lazy or hard-working or selfish or self-sacrificing to roughly the same degrees that men are.

Ohhhh, now we get down to it: "real" women are the ones who happen to agree with you, eh?

Let me say it again: women are not stupid, like you seem to think they are. If women were happier staying home while their brains rot in a stew of baby-talk, they would do so in far greater numbers than they do know. Personally, I'd cut my brachial arteries if I were forced into that kind of existence... just like a lot of professional afghani women did after the Taliban took over.

The thing is, I *like* the hospital. I get a great deal of personal satisfaction out of working there, out of being a part of the team that saves (or tries to save) a trauma victim's or heart attack victim's life. I *enjoy* having people rely on having me show up at a certain time in a certain place and with a certain role. Even before I worked at the hospital, I liked almost every job I ever had.


Gag. The longest I was ever on vacation was 2 weeks, and I was more than ready to come back by the time it ended. I'll say it again: you need to find yourself a sugar mamma, because it sure looks like you'd be happier that way. Nothing wrong with being the nurturing type, but don't pretend that all women are mother hens or all men are type-A careerists.

I did say that equal opportunity is right for the women that want to be more male like.

Women's rights are for females like u. Believe it or not I'd probably actually get on with someone like you. The people you argue with are quite often the people u respect the most in other situations.

But what gives u the right to force that on other women?

You're someone that doesnt really understand other women right?

Do u see that you're not really being a feminist as the true meaning of the word should mean?

What about the masses for who being female is all they want. For the ones who always thought of the boys games as stupid.

And nah, I'm too cold hearted and self interested to rely on a female.

And I really don't care, I find it really hard to reply to you. You're lucky u didn't just get a

Last edited by woodster on 04 Dec 2013, 3:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

The misandrist "feminists" that he seeks out daily to satisfy the fetish he obviously has for them, silly.

"force"?
?!

I think I understand women just fine - better than you, certainly.

There's nothing wrong with being female, but your definition of the word is overly limited and overly limiting. Women who want to work are not trying to be men; they're women, who want to work. There's nothing abnormal or unfeminine about that.

Hang on, didn't you say that hanging out at home with the kids is what you want? In other words, isn't that where your self-interest lies?

No one's forcing you to do anything, least of all carry on a conversation here.

Yeah, had to employ my detective skills to find the survey, but it's available from the website the article itself is reporting from.

One of the most revealing question in the survey is:

Thinking about your future, what do you personally think that you need in life, to help you do well and be happy?

(multiple choice, multiple selection)



Although the report asserts that there is widespread and damaging sexism towards young girls and women, and sets out to prove this with dubious opinion-based statistics, this question (and the answers gleaned from it) suggest that any perceived social pressures or sexist attitudes have little impact on their outlook. The fact that such a high percentage chose 'good job/career' is evidence that the girls believe such things are attainable.

The follow up question is:

Thinking about your future, what do you personally think that you need in life, to help you do well and be happy?

(multiple choice, multiple selection)



Even when they narrowed the range of options, physical appearance only managed to beat governmental support and the Brownies.

If you ask me, these young ladies have pretty much got their s**t together.

not at home hanging out with kids, doing my own thing in my own time. not working if it was up to me. Life is worth more than that thing you think is so much fun because you managed to warp in your head the thing that men were trapped doing into some kind of freedom that was denied to women.

only one female ever has had power over me, the idea of having a sugar mama is repellent.

And it wouldnt happen anyway. As the kind of person who loses feelings relatively quickly ( i have literally kicked girls out of bed to sleep on the sofa), and with the power of a relationship going to the person with the least feelings, sugar mama situation is something that would never happen to me.

i agree that theres nothing wrong with females, and if someone was female id always urge them to do their own thing and ignore everyone else.

I do have a lot of strong females in my background. My nan divorced my grandad when my mum was young and ended up in a relationship with a guy that resulted in a further child to look after as a single parent. A child that was half cast pakastani Sikh, right smack in the middle of the 60s, along with highly probably being aspie, when girls like you would have probably given their kid up for adoption because of MALE PATRIARCHAL SOCIETAL ATTITUDES. She didnt give a crap and shes the person i got on the most with while growing up.

but that doesnt mean i want to live in a female dominated world, because thats the only place you want to go. I like being male, i from my own point of view think being male is a far superior experience. How could i think otherwise? Im male arent i? How dare i talk about things from my own perspective though right? im so sexist.

It doesnt mean i dont respect females, it just means that i am happy with who i am and see things from my own point of view.


Btw, that information on female miners. What a laugh. I mention that ive got miners going back basically right back for as long as anyone remembers. You point me to the time when they briefly did as much as men and then people complained and it went back to men doing it and the whole situation got forgotten about.

its nice how the work of men gets taken for granted, and the small amount of work that gets done by women gets talked about for hundreds of years isnt it? Im sorry mrs, i know you did the dishes the last 500 times, but 5 years ago i did the dishes once. Erm no, because i dont live in the world of once done something so it makes us equal, i know all about the word fair. Give men their due for once in your life.




u know, the females in my family were factory workers too. My parents met because my grandad on my mums side and my dad worked in the same pit, and my nans from both sides worked together in the same pottery factory. its not just some history lesson that i read on some woman biased website.

I do know about that aspect of things from first hand. I know the kind of easy jobs they were given in comparison to males. ive worked in a pottery factory myself. Males with the hard labor, women with the delicate work sitting down all day.

what are you trying to prove though? That for an entire world of men working some women have also worked? Or are you just trying to bog me down with technicalities and nagging until i give up and agree with you? Why do you even care that everyone should agree with you?

its just a case of trying to beat me at my own game though right? Females are the best, females RULEZ.

nah, not at all. if you were happy with yourself you wouldnt care about what other people think. You've got the rights within law, stop trying to dominate other peoples minds. Be happy with being female, stop trying to be the boss of people that by their very nature resist being ruled.

why dont you try some live and let live?

Ohhhh, so the idea of being stuck at home with "babies" and housework doesn't appeal to you, either? What a surprise.

So why the f**k do you think that most women would be content being the lackey of a man? Weren't you just dressing this very situation up as some sort of idyllic paradise just a few posts ago?


Sour grapes?

I'm glad that you had a good relationship with your mom.
As for what women like aspies here on WP would do, I feel safe in saying that birth control and/or abortion would probably preclude adoption.


Straw feminist
Women working =/= female dominated world.

I have no problem with you talking about your own experience. I do have a problem with you pretending that you know what it's like to be a woman more than women do.

Don't you remember the hunter/gatherer link I posted? Maybe you didn't bother to read it?

For f**k's sake, could you get off of your poor-little-me carousel for a little while? Women work. Women have always worked. Women have always worked in pretty much any field that they were allowed to work in. Yessss, men have done a lot in the last few thousand years.... and women would have done more than sit at home rotting, if the society had allowed them to. For crying out loud, women weren't even routinely educated to read and write, even in the upper classes, in a lot of the western world for a long time.



Can you say, "cherry picking"?
I read those pages, and I thought to myself, "He's probably going to pick these exact sentences and ignore the entire rest of the page,"
Are you happy to know how predictable you are?

Does history have a feminist bias, just like modern facts have a liberal bias? Good to know, thanks.

And, at the end of the day, the women got up from their wheels skipping and singing, laughing about how much fun it was and how much energy they still had after their day's work! Right? No?

...
...you do understand, don't you, that people come on to the internet to discuss and argue? That when I disagree with you, I'm going to say so? That it's not "nagging" or "trying to bog you down with technicalities," it's standard internet practice? Standard forum practice?
Why are you here, if you didn't think that people were going to disagree with you?

Do you really think, that people thinking of men as pigs, would still be interested in having sex with them?