Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

Why is human life valued?

Page 2 of 3 [ 43 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

GGPViper
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,880

23 Feb 2014, 5:49 am

Ah, finally a question which is easy to answer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocal_altruism

If one would be in the terrible situation of only having the right to read *one* scientific article in a lifetime, *this* would be an obvious candidate:
http://ggsc-web02.ist.berkeley.edu/imag ... truism.pdf

Human nature explained in 23 pages.



Ann2011
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Jul 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,843
Location: Ontario, Canada

23 Feb 2014, 12:18 pm

Moviefan2k4 wrote:
The only objective value we have as people is due to our being made in the image of a loving God, who pursues us without being overbearing, desiring that we turn to Him yet unwilling to force us (even though He could). People can deny it all they want, but if God doesn't exist, then we're nothing but a cosmic accident that will ultimately mean nothing to anyone.

Why would it be hard to believe that we are a cosmic accident with no ultimate meaning?

GGPViper wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocal_altruism

This makes a lot of sense.


_________________
People are strange, when you're a stranger
Faces look ugly when you're alone.
Morrison/Krieger


beneficii
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Age: 42
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,245

23 Feb 2014, 12:22 pm

To be a beast, you need to be a four-footed mammal. Because humans are two-footed mammals, we are not beasts.


_________________
"You have a responsibility to consider all sides of a problem and a responsibility to make a judgment and a responsibility to care for all involved." --Ian Danskin


Ann2011
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Jul 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,843
Location: Ontario, Canada

23 Feb 2014, 12:25 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Ann2011 wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I don't see myself as a beast at all and am 100 times removed from them as are most people I know,

How so?

Because beasts cannot get out their laptop, boot it up, find wp on the web and create a post. They can do nothing remotely like this. They exist in the wild, unable to manipulate their environment except in a very basic way, ie, a bird can build a nest.
Humans do things in ways no beasts can. Some beasts evolved superb athletic skills. Humans evolved in an entirely different direction compared to them if you really look at the differences. Most of what animals do is based on athletic skills and quick reflexes. For instance, monkeys swing from limb to limb in trees using their arms and hands to grasp. Their muscles and coordination are superior to ours in this respect. Other animals have developed similar skills, swimming or running quickly, for example. Humans have not accomplished this. Face it, they are not cheetahs no where close. Instead, they evolved to use their minds to solve problems and manipulate the environment. Instead of leg strength and sense of smell, they evolved the ability to experience both consciousness and a conscience.
Of course this makes them a thousand times more destructive than animals at times. Much more evil and the cost to the environment and themselves is much greater.

True, but why do we value this, or think that it makes humans "special." There are likely animals or other creatures that have there own marvelous abilities. How do we know ours are of more value?


_________________
People are strange, when you're a stranger
Faces look ugly when you're alone.
Morrison/Krieger


thomas81
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland

23 Feb 2014, 12:38 pm

beneficii wrote:
To be a beast, you need to be a four-footed mammal. Because humans are two-footed mammals, we are not beasts.


So apes are not beasts?


_________________
Being 'normal' is over rated.

My deviant art profile


ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,265

23 Feb 2014, 12:44 pm

Ann2011 wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Ann2011 wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I don't see myself as a beast at all and am 100 times removed from them as are most people I know,

How so?

Because beasts cannot get out their laptop, boot it up, find wp on the web and create a post. They can do nothing remotely like this. They exist in the wild, unable to manipulate their environment except in a very basic way, ie, a bird can build a nest.
Humans do things in ways no beasts can. Some beasts evolved superb athletic skills. Humans evolved in an entirely different direction compared to them if you really look at the differences. Most of what animals do is based on athletic skills and quick reflexes. For instance, monkeys swing from limb to limb in trees using their arms and hands to grasp. Their muscles and coordination are superior to ours in this respect. Other animals have developed similar skills, swimming or running quickly, for example. Humans have not accomplished this. Face it, they are not cheetahs no where close. Instead, they evolved to use their minds to solve problems and manipulate the environment. Instead of leg strength and sense of smell, they evolved the ability to experience both consciousness and a conscience.
Of course this makes them a thousand times more destructive than animals at times. Much more evil and the cost to the environment and themselves is much greater.

True, but why do we value this, or think that it makes humans "special." There are likely animals or other creatures that have there own marvelous abilities. How do we know ours are of more value?

Actually many humans do value athletic ability, they just don't have it and the Cheetah does so they logically become jealous of the Cheetah.
We evolved to have this sense of specialness like LKL pointed out. It's inherent in all species, it enables them to reproduce by recognizing members of their own species.



Ann2011
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Jul 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,843
Location: Ontario, Canada

23 Feb 2014, 4:48 pm

It does make sense that a species would value others of the same species as this keeps the genetics consistent. And hence promotes the survival of the species.
Religion has created a fiction about humanity so as to provide evidence for this feeling. I think we should get past this and realize that we are only part of a much greater and complex group.
I guess we are in the habit of glorifying ourselves; people seem to need to think that they are special and of unique value. I think we still have a lot to learn.


_________________
People are strange, when you're a stranger
Faces look ugly when you're alone.
Morrison/Krieger


beneficii
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Age: 42
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,245

23 Feb 2014, 4:53 pm

thomas81 wrote:
beneficii wrote:
To be a beast, you need to be a four-footed mammal. Because humans are two-footed mammals, we are not beasts.


So apes are not beasts?


At least not if those apes are human. I'm not sure beast is the best word to use in any sort of scientific context, anyway. Another group of apes, chimpanzees, for example, seem to really blur the line, often walking on all fours, but sometimes using the front two for grasping purposes similar to some things humans use their hands for.


_________________
"You have a responsibility to consider all sides of a problem and a responsibility to make a judgment and a responsibility to care for all involved." --Ian Danskin


Ann2011
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Jul 2011
Age: 56
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,843
Location: Ontario, Canada

23 Feb 2014, 5:01 pm

This video shows a crow figuring out how to achieve a desired goal in several related steps. We may be underestimating the intelligence of other species because we don't notice it.

You Tube


_________________
People are strange, when you're a stranger
Faces look ugly when you're alone.
Morrison/Krieger


trollcatman
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Dec 2012
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,919

24 Feb 2014, 5:21 am

Raptor wrote:
/\
Yep! There's something about dogs that I haven't seen in anything else other than humans. It could be because I've spent a lot of time with dogs but some of them them have that glow to them.


"A dog has personality. Personality goes a long way."
I feel the same about cats. I think if you spend time with cats or dogs (or other animals) and learn to understand their body language you can see their personality, and view them a little more as a "person".
I think most people would grieve more for their own pets, than for 100k humans dying in a natural disaster on the other side of the world.



thomas81
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland

24 Feb 2014, 5:57 am

trollcatman wrote:
Raptor wrote:
/\
Yep! There's something about dogs that I haven't seen in anything else other than humans. It could be because I've spent a lot of time with dogs but some of them them have that glow to them.


"A dog has personality. Personality goes a long way."
I feel the same about cats. I think if you spend time with cats or dogs (or other animals) and learn to understand their body language you can see their personality, and view them a little more as a "person".
I think most people would grieve more for their own pets, than for 100k humans dying in a natural disaster on the other side of the world.


its harder to grieve when you can't personalise it like that. I think most people would be more sad to hear about 250k people dying (like in the Thai tsunami) than if they heard about a species of rhino becoming extinct.


_________________
Being 'normal' is over rated.

My deviant art profile


The_Walrus
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2010
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 8,878
Location: London

24 Feb 2014, 6:10 am

In my opinion, we are only valuable as an extension of animals. We are more intelligent, more self-aware, more creative... Our self awareness and consciousness mean we, as individuals, are more "deserving" than other animals. Other attributes such as creativity make our species more valuable.

If a chimp (/pig/dog/parrot/lizard/ant/tree) was born that could match human attributes, then it would be deserving of the same treatment.



Jono
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,677
Location: Johannesburg, South Africa

24 Feb 2014, 6:22 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Because beasts cannot get out their laptop, boot it up, find wp on the web and create a post. They can do nothing remotely like this. They exist in the wild, unable to manipulate their environment except in a very basic way, ie, a bird can build a nest.


Only 30 years ago, humans could not open a laptop or post on the internet either because neither laptops nor the internet existed then. 10000 years ago, humans hunted and lived in tribes, pretty much like other animals live in herds, we were not that different from other animals, yet our physical form hasn't changed much since then. Are you saying that people living today are superior to or more special than people living 30 or 10000 years ago?



Misslizard
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Age: 62
Gender: Female
Posts: 20,558
Location: Aux Arcs

24 Feb 2014, 10:38 am

beneficii wrote:
To be a beast, you need to be a four-footed mammal. Because humans are two-footed mammals, we are not beasts.

Some humans behave worse than beasts.At one time the dominate creature on this planet went on two legs.An asteroid supposedly took them out.


_________________
I am the dust that dances in the light. - Rumi


ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,265

24 Feb 2014, 12:58 pm

Jono wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Because beasts cannot get out their laptop, boot it up, find wp on the web and create a post. They can do nothing remotely like this. They exist in the wild, unable to manipulate their environment except in a very basic way, ie, a bird can build a nest.


Only 30 years ago, humans could not open a laptop or post on the internet either because neither laptops nor the internet existed then. 10000 years ago, humans hunted and lived in tribes, pretty much like other animals live in herds, we were not that different from other animals, yet our physical form hasn't changed much since then. Are you saying that people living today are superior to or more special than people living 30 or 10000 years ago?

Yes. However humans had consciousness and conscience back then. Important development in our evolution. So you see, the potential has been there. Other animals do not have it (that we have seen.)
They are athletes who run on instinct.,while we mostly sit and think and when some of us decide to run or swim, it isn't very fast unless we figure out a device to help us out.



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

24 Feb 2014, 3:00 pm

We have self awareness, and with the exception of psychopathic individuals, we are aware that others have self awareness, as well. We can understand the fear others feel when they are in danger, and can empathize with those emotions. We can empathize with injustices done to others, because we know how we would react when faced with the same dilemma. It's this interconnection of mutual understanding and empathy that gives human life value.


_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer