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Why LGBT activists should oppose Israeli pinkwashing

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Humanaut
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09 Aug 2014, 9:28 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
Not at all. I think they should use examples like this more frequently to illustrate regional differences between civilization and barbarism. Women's rights is another relevant subject.

Given the context, presumably you are using 'barbarism' as a synonym for 'Islam'.

I am generally referring to how minorities and women are being treated.

thomas81 wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
Wealth presupposes other types of rights not being recognized, partly due to their Western origins.

Homosexuality became legal in China during the 1980's, with the onset of its increasing wealth so there are precedences outside the west where my point holds true.

I wouldn't be surprised if China's economic reforms under Deng Xiaoping led to other rights being recognized, but I don't think Hamas is willing to embrace the same Western values.



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09 Aug 2014, 9:34 pm

Humanaut wrote:
I'm generally referring to how minorities and women are being treated.

I'm going to presume thats a cowardly way of saying 'yes'. You haven't adequately tackled my point that social and economic development has just as, or an even greater bearing on general development and equality issues than religion.


Humanaut wrote:
I wouldn't be surprised if China's economic reforms under Deng Xiaoping led to other rights being recognized, but I don't think Hamas is willing to embrace the same Western values as China.

Again, you're putting the horse before the cart. Hamas is symptomatic of the socio-economic difficults and gaza and again, this brings us full circle back to the point of pinkwashing and other tired hasbaric tactics to derail legitimate criticism of Israel.


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Humanaut
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09 Aug 2014, 9:42 pm

Social and economic development presupposes wealth creation (an effect of economic freedom).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_freedom



thomas81
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09 Aug 2014, 9:44 pm

Humanaut wrote:
Social and economic development presupposes wealth creation (an effect of economic freedom).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_freedom


its going to take an awful lot more than a uncontexualised link to an Austrian school wiki article to make a point.

Anyway, market libertarianism is a load of shite. There are no meaningful wealth creation opportunities in gaza. I have heard of libertarians saying that they "could make antarctica the wealthiest land on earth, if only it could be run with anarcho capitalist principles". Which shows the level of understanding of many libertarians.


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Humanaut
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09 Aug 2014, 9:53 pm

thomas81 wrote:
There are no meaningful wealth creation opportunities in gaza.

Exactly!

More economic freedom is needed to foster wealth creation, followed by social and economic development.



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09 Aug 2014, 9:58 pm

Humanaut wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
There are no meaningful wealth creation opportunities in gaza.

Exactly!

More economic freedom is needed to foster wealth creation, followed by social and economic development.

Not exactly.

You're talking about the dogmatic. I am talking about the material. 'Economic freedom' is an idea. Ideas by their own merit don't feed hungry children or clothe people. Ideas don't do jackshit when all you have to work with is rocks, rubble and corpses.

Gaza lacks arable land, usuable water and industry. Wealth creation in gaza will continue to be obfuscated as long as Israeli attempts to frustrate gaza operating as a sovereign entity or member of a feasible Palestinian state continue.


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09 Aug 2014, 10:02 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Ideas don't do jackshit when all you have to work with is rocks, rubble and corpses.

Some ideas lead to rocks, rubble and corpses, and other ideas lead to wealth, freedom and prosperity.



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09 Aug 2014, 10:06 pm

Humanaut wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Ideas don't do jackshit when all you have to work with is rocks, rubble and corpses.

Some ideas lead to rocks, rubble and corpses, and other ideas lead to wealth, freedom and prosperity.


countries with the latter started with lands that were not synonymous with the former.

To create wealth you need industry. To create industry you need raw materials. Gaza does not have raw materials. Ideas, by their own virtue form neither raw materials nor industry. Got it yet?


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09 Aug 2014, 10:10 pm

thomas81 wrote:
To create wealth you need industry.

Not at all. Economic freedom is sufficient. Just look at Hong Kong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Hong_Kong



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09 Aug 2014, 10:15 pm

Humanaut wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
To create wealth you need industry.

Not at all. Economic freedom is sufficient. Just look at Hong Kong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Hong_Kong


Not analogous to Gaza.

Hong Kong has geographic factors in its favour. It served (and serves) as a valuable trading nexus for East Asia because of its location giving ease of access to the Chinese mainland.

Thats also ignoring that much of its early wealth in colonial times was based around the nefarious import of heroin by the British. Not something to be emulated given the modern context at least.


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09 Aug 2014, 10:22 pm

Homosexuals living in Hong Kong do not risk being killed or tortured by Palestinians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Hong_Kong



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09 Aug 2014, 11:24 pm

I was just in Manhattan, where, unless you plan to farm between the paths in Central Park, ain't no raw materials. They seem to be doing all right there. And perhaps it's escaped your notice, but Israel itself is a bit of desert housing millions. They figured it out. Yes, they've had help; so have the Palestinians, only the Palestinians had to stand by and watch their aid get stolen, just as it is in every other place run by armed thugs.

The Palestinians lack freedom from their own stupid young men with rockets and a prayerbook. That is their main economic disadvantage. Were they able to free themselves from such idiots, and were they to put up a hand and say, "Please help us build a university that won't be used as an arms depot and weapons research facility," they'd soon have one as good as anything in Israel. Industry? The Israelis left them one to get started with; look what became of it. But again, this is what happens when you're under the thumb of foolish and violent young men. All over the world.



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10 Aug 2014, 1:53 am

This idea is stupid Palistinians are against the LGBT community based on their beliefs! Islam, Judism and Christiantity scowl at homosexuality! Islam seems to be the harshest against homosexuality followed closely by christianity and judism! [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOcJFbNKlks[/youtube]God/Allah/Yahwei isnt real anyway


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10 Aug 2014, 2:42 am

In 1947 Gaza literally touched the West Bank and nobody called a strip. Israel and Palestine was like a Battenburg cake, where no one side controlled the centre. Both had access to the Mediterranean, and the East.

Yes they f****d up their opportunity to build an independent nation, an opportunity they didn't have before, not under the British, Ottomans, Byzantines, Romans, etc. I'd be they would love to even get a fraction of the opportunity back.

Gaza isn't a viable nation true, but they have to take some of the responsibility for why that is.



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10 Aug 2014, 6:15 am

0_equals_true wrote:
In 1947 Gaza literally touched the West Bank and nobody called a strip. Israel and Palestine was like a Battenburg cake, where no one side controlled the centre. Both had access to the Mediterranean, and the East.

Yes they f****d up their opportunity to build an independent nation, an opportunity they didn't have before, not under the British, Ottomans, Byzantines, Romans, etc. I'd be they would love to even get a fraction of the opportunity back.

Gaza isn't a viable nation true, but they have to take some of the responsibility for why that is.


There is also quite a lot of fairly open space in Gaza that could be built on.

Why don't Hamas et al fire their rockets from there instead of deliberately harming their own?

For the Hamas lovers: more Palestinians that die the better for their cause. In the end, it's Gazand that have the ugly job of removing Hamas and their like.

They could be filthy rich - and I would visit - if the wanted to.



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10 Aug 2014, 10:32 am

I've already encouraged Gazans to make a deal and live their lives. It's time to move past this conflict. I really can envision a place not unlike Lebanon and Beirut right there on the sea. If they will forget about this silly attacking with their inferior weapons and vow never again to suicide bomb or anything like that, condemn such tactics, yes, they have a bright future as a place not unlike Beirut but they have to be willing to embrace a life without the militants and rockets. A peaceful life. I hope they will do it.