Why are poeple on this site so obessed with feminists?

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Dillogic
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09 Dec 2014, 7:45 am

Because it's not "feminism" that people are talking about.

Equal rights are already here in English/European countries. That's feminism.



Evil_Chuck
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09 Dec 2014, 8:09 am

I don't know why the obsession persists. I personally don't care about feminism. I care about equality. Feminism ceased to be a cohesive, constructive means to equality a long time ago. There are some, male and female (males were once allowed within the ranks, believe it or not) who actually remember what it was all supposed to be about, but they seem to be outnumbered these days by entitled thought police who complain loudly and uselessly about biology and political correctness. It is desperation and conflict for its own sake.

Equality is not something that can be entirely legislated from above or birthed by upheaval from the fringes. In part, it is something we create for ourselves. People who treat themselves and others with respect, and who grew up in an environment where that was typical, have already gone a long way towards that goal. People who were treated badly in the past, however, not only expect to be treated badly in the future but also fail to understand the differing experiences of others. These people are lost in pain and will never feel equal, no matter how much concrete progress is achieved.

Being one of them, I understand that position. It's the reason I don't champion causes or get involved in politics. I know that my bad experiences will distort my views, I will not enjoy my successes, and my failures will just hurt me more.


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Jono
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09 Dec 2014, 9:12 am

0_equals_true wrote:
I wonder what is behind this resentment?


If you're only talking about this site, it started about a few years ago when one person (now banned) started bringing MRA ideas on to the board. Before that, there wasn't much discussion of feminism. It's a pity though because I later realised that MRA's were more about misogyny and anti-feminism than they were about any cause they claim to be about.



slenkar
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09 Dec 2014, 12:00 pm

One thing I've noticed is that most women will not want to date a man who has no job.

Women have the majority of jobs in western countries...and there are only a limited number of jobs...

So the same people who want women to have careers are the same ones who would reject a man for not having one.



GnosticBishop
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09 Dec 2014, 12:03 pm

Jacoby wrote:
You're not going to find many people that oppose equality for women, .


If women did not have an opposition then they would not be making 70% of what men make for the same work nor would feminists even exist as they would have no cause to. You might want to inform yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Inequality_Index

You will also note that most mainstream religions are quite misogynous.

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09 Dec 2014, 12:14 pm

Verax wrote:
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It's a matter of language.

Feminist literally means pro-female, which, because ale and female are seen as opposites means that pro-female implies anti-male.


You are correct, so why are you miss-using the language and adding your own definition to it?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/feminist


Quote:
Try thinking instead.


Indeed.

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09 Dec 2014, 12:18 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:
Because its hard to tell which ones are for equality and which ones are just a buncha whining professional victims who just hate men! The latter are fun to troll though.


Should a victim love those who victimize them?

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GnosticBishop
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09 Dec 2014, 12:20 pm

Dillogic wrote:
Because it's not "feminism" that people are talking about.

Equal rights are already here in English/European countries. That's feminism.


Yet the Church of England only recently allowed for women Bishops.

I do admit that the E.U. gives better lip service to women than on this side of the pond.

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GnosticBishop
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09 Dec 2014, 12:26 pm

Evil_Chuck wrote:
I will not enjoy my successes, and my failures will just hurt me more.


A doctor will tell you that pain is a part of the healing process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBShN8qT4lk

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09 Dec 2014, 2:42 pm

http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/ ... s-rape-ok/ <-----Alot actually believe in this garbage!


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Jacoby
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09 Dec 2014, 3:37 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
You're not going to find many people that oppose equality for women, .


If women did not have an opposition then they would not be making 70% of what men make for the same work nor would feminists even exist as they would have no cause to. You might want to inform yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Inequality_Index

You will also note that most mainstream religions are quite misogynous.

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DL


Inform myself of what? This is like saying we need Al Sharpton or else slavery will come back, I really doubt it. The great contentious "feminist" struggles of the 21st century in the US is having the government pay for your birth control, crying about some princess in some video game, or some guys shirt on TV. You can't act like that's the same as people who advocated for the right to vote for women, being able to work outside the home, being able to choose who you want to marry. Not many people in America would think the savage barbaric stuff they do to women in countries like Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, India, China, certain parts of Africa, etc is okay and that's where women are still struggling for those basic fundamental rights. It's just not the same as it is here obviously, likening the two I see as just hiding behind a brand hoping it will lend credence to your argument. A cheap emotional ploy in my opinion.

Now, I meant no offense by this post so before anybody starts foaming at the mouth, let's keep it civil okay? PPR is for debate.



Janissy
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09 Dec 2014, 4:16 pm

slenkar wrote:
Women have the majority of jobs in western countries...and there are only a limited number of jobs...


Labour statistics say that is not true.

http://content.gallup.com/origin/gallup ... 3qiyeq.png

Everywhere in the world, including western countries, the percentage of men employed is higher than the percentage of women.



The_Walrus
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09 Dec 2014, 4:28 pm

Dox47 wrote:
Jacoby pretty much nailed it, but I'll add that there is really one person on here who is obsessed with feminists, mostly with trolling them, who the mods mostly choose to ignore for reasons I imagine involve pity.

I didn't know it was possible to ignore something if you didn't exist. :wink:



RhodyStruggle
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09 Dec 2014, 5:09 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
You're not going to find many people that oppose equality for women, .


If women did not have an opposition then they would not be making 70% of what men make for the same work nor would feminists even exist as they would have no cause to. You might want to inform yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_Inequality_Index

You will also note that most mainstream religions are quite misogynous.

Regards
DL


I think Jacoby was speaking with regard to present perspectives. The structural oppression your response pertains to is not a reflection of only present perspectives, but the perspectives which existed over the entire interval of time during which events which would precipitate said structures unfolded.

So you're kind of comparing apples and oranges, which leaves both of you feeling right and feeling that the other is wrong, when the truth is that you're both right.

I think the thing to take away from this is that, on the one hand, ceasing discrimination against women from some point-in-time T forward, doesn't in and of itself create a level playing field from T forward; and on the other hand, failing to understand the continuing-into-the-present-and-future impact of past gender inequality is not the same thing as opposing gender equality.


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Persimmonpudding
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09 Dec 2014, 6:25 pm

Because a certain breed of feminist is particularly annoying to people who have ASD.

I've run into them. They live in this delusional fantasy where all gender disparity, even where you can prove that the reason behind the disparity is based on biological differences, is part of some evil conspiracy, somehow.

If you point out scientific evidence that contradicts their fantasy, you are told, "Well, those scientists are really all misogynists anyway, since they think that all ideas have to PASS SOME KIND OF TEST to be deemed acceptable! It's all part of the patriarchy, don't you know!"

And, in their view, they are morally superior because they accept any person's ideas as perfect and worthy just as they are, even though they're pretty much crapping profusely on your ideas. And they don't see this as contradictory.

On the other hand, most people with ASD are actually fairly feminist, overall. They just aren't THAT kind of feminist. They're true feminists. They are people who think that everyone, regardless of how they think, should be given a chance to contribute to society everything that is within their potential, even if some of us may require unconventional accommodations, at times, in order to reach our full potential. We don't want welfare benefits, but we want simple considerations such as being able to ask, at a fast-food job, not to be forced to do service waiting tables when there are more suitable jobs in the back that the servers hate doing anyway. We don't demand unreasonable sacrifice on the part of organizations, but on the contrary, we suggest that businesses could actually see better profits and greater workplace harmony if they learned to manage "deep-level" diversity in the workplace. Generally, most of the things that could be done to accommodate people with ASD, in the workplace, would be cost-neutral or cost-negative!

We also realize that, in many workplaces, women are in the same position. Many workplaces are built "by men, for men." This is a tragedy. We understand that.

But being called a "misogynist" because you dare to say "Actually, a nuance to that issue is that testosterone and estrogen do some pretty interesting things in the brain, and let me call up a few citations to demonstrate to you how this works," is really very disheartening. You assume that other people want to discuss the topic in the light of factual accuracy, and you don't really know how to deal with someone who works more on the basis of rhetoric and symbolic language.

Think of it along the lines of people who have the homophobic or transphobic strains of feminism. Many feminists are extremely hostile toward gay people and other minority groups, and they are actually very outspoken and cruel on this matter. I have encountered them even in academic settings.

I think that people with ASD are naturally averse to a certain strain of feminism, which is the delusional/paranoid strain of feminism where you're almost obligated to be out-of-touch with reality in order to be considered "enlightened." On the other hand, I think people with ASD also tend to readily embrace other, more realistic and pragmatic, forms of feminism.

And those of us who have had very different exposure on the topic can kind of clash, but it's rewarding to have these kinds of conversations because we often find ourselves agreeing with each other on more things than we disagree.



Last edited by Persimmonpudding on 09 Dec 2014, 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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09 Dec 2014, 6:28 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
If women did not have an opposition then they would not be making 70% of what men make for the same work nor would feminists even exist as they would have no cause to. You might want to inform yourself.

False, and a common misrepresentation of statistics by feminists. (I don't accuse you of that, you probably just heard it from them.)

It's unclear if there is any pay gap for the same work, factoring out all differences in profession, experience etc. (not really). But the ~70% figure is not in any way for the same work, it's simply an average across all jobs, before factoring out any differences. If a company could save 15% on the wages by employing only women, it would vastly out-compete its competitors.

Add this to the dangers list:
  • Governments, pressured by feminists, force companies to make equal the average salary of men and women, which may result in less pay for you. (And then the companies will try to hire more men, and the feminists will have more "proof" how discriminating and misogynist the companies are...)


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