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Sweetleaf
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14 Oct 2015, 8:04 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Socialism has taken off in America.

America has a 39.1 percent corporate tax rate. Higher than any of the countries you mentioned.

This is one reason that companies flee and incorporate themselves outside America (tax inversion).

source:
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/st ... ree-world/


Actually there is more to socialism than taxation....and fleeing you say, as if they're running in fear of losing a few bucks but I guess to them that is the scariest thing ever. If those corporations want to be a part of this society and benefit from its freedoms or any policies they should pay their fair share back into the infrastructure...otherwise why should they be able to operate in the United States?


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Sweetleaf
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14 Oct 2015, 8:07 pm

Shrapnel wrote:
It is a sad situation when the US becomes more concerned about dividing up the wealth than creating it.


Not really, when you have around 1% of the population controlling most of the nations wealth and resources, then its sad if it continues remaining more concerned with creating $$$, than dividing it in a more reasonable way.


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Sweetleaf
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14 Oct 2015, 8:11 pm

whatamess wrote:
I don't know, but I live in a place that is mostly socialist in policies and it is going down the drain...I bet many socialist places are too, they just don't make it public because of course, the majority are benefiting while the minority work to support the ones who don't...I'm about to leave this place


Because it is better when the majority are working to support the lavish lifestyles of the 1% whilst barely scraping by themselves.... :roll: Of course only a minority working to provide the majority with benefits doesn't sound much like socialism to me....and explain how that is when a large portion of full time workers are barely scraping by and need welfare programs themselves.

But I digress no one is stopping you leaving...


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14 Oct 2015, 8:28 pm

Spiderpig wrote:
Might be because there are a lot of people voting who benefit from socialist policies. If only rich people could vote, you can bet the picture would be very different.

Then it would be a oligarchy in which the wealthy consider that it's better for those "lazy" poor to die of starvation; it would also make for a very bad economic system.

Shrapnel wrote:
It is a sad situation when the US becomes more concerned about dividing up the wealth than creating it.

Without some amount of socialism capitalism can't work. You need a mix of capitalism and socialism to create great amount of wealth.



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14 Oct 2015, 11:48 pm

Tollorin wrote:
Then it would be a oligarchy in which the wealthy consider that it's better for those "lazy" poor to die of starvation; it would also make for a very bad economic system.


It would be good for those voting, and that would be enough.


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14 Oct 2015, 11:59 pm

K_Kelly wrote:
I know that it's not dictatorship like the old Soviet Union, but why do most democracies today gravitate towards socialism, countries like the UK, Canada, most of Europe and South America, Mexico?

I live in the US, but even I don't understand why the socialism part hasn't taken off here as much as in other democracies. There's still a libertarian/capitalist strain here though, sometimes I kind of like that.


The president of a company where I used to work one time said that the US was showing the Soviet Union and the rest of the world how to make socialism work.



luan78zao
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15 Oct 2015, 12:24 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
luan78zao wrote:
Simple. Politicians discovered that they could buy votes with other people's money.


What's wrong with a government that actually does something for the people?


I'm all in favor of a government which does things for the people – all the people. For example, everybody benefits from a military which deters foreign aggressors, a police force which fights crime, a court system which operates on objective principles. You can make a case for roads and infrastructure on the same grounds.

But a government which takes from the productive and gives, not just to the needy, but to the politicians' business cronies and to sundry foreign dictators, all while keeping the lion's share for itself – that's not doing something for the people. That's plain looting.

I gather that you continue to support the whole dirty racket because it sometimes throws you a few coins. But we'd all be a lot more prosperous if less of the country's wealth were being sucked into that ever-growing black hole on the Potomac.

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And if taxes aren't used to care for those in need, what's supposed to happen to them? Learn to go without food or medicine until they can join the upper class by their own superhuman effort? Or are they just expected to die?


Ridiculous, obvious, over-the-top false alternative. Sometimes I wonder if you type all this stuff with a straight face, or if it's all really a bizarre parody.


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Kraichgauer
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15 Oct 2015, 12:55 am

luan78zao wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
luan78zao wrote:
Simple. Politicians discovered that they could buy votes with other people's money.


What's wrong with a government that actually does something for the people?


I'm all in favor of a government which does things for the people – all the people. For example, everybody benefits from a military which deters foreign aggressors, a police force which fights crime, a court system which operates on objective principles. You can make a case for roads and infrastructure on the same grounds.

But a government which takes from the productive and gives, not just to the needy, but to the politicians' business cronies and to sundry foreign dictators, all while keeping the lion's share for itself – that's not doing something for the people. That's plain looting.

I gather that you continue to support the whole dirty racket because it sometimes throws you a few coins. But we'd all be a lot more prosperous if less of the country's wealth were being sucked into that ever-growing black hole on the Potomac.

Quote:
And if taxes aren't used to care for those in need, what's supposed to happen to them? Learn to go without food or medicine until they can join the upper class by their own superhuman effort? Or are they just expected to die?


Ridiculous, obvious, over-the-top false alternative. Sometimes I wonder if you type all this stuff with a straight face, or if it's all really a bizarre parody.


No parody. A government caring for the people will care for those who can't care for themselves. The kind of government you describe taking care of everyone is essentially no different from any other kind, since time immemorial; nothing special. And why do think I'm being "over-the-top" by suggesting those without would die if left without the government offering help? Quite simply, the poor and disabled never had a long lifespan throughout history, prior to the rise of the social safety net.


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15 Oct 2015, 2:35 am

In other words, natural selection was doing its job. The social safety net is our genetic undoing as a species.


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15 Oct 2015, 2:39 am

Spiderpig wrote:
In other words, natural selection was doing its job. The social safety net is our genetic undoing as a species.


Human beings have worth. We're not just a bunch of rabbits. I thought it was you conservatives who always ballyhooed your Judeo-Christian credentials. If so, then you people ought to be the most fervent to care for the least in society.


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15 Oct 2015, 3:11 am

Tell that to those who identify as conservatives and Judeo-Christian. I'm neither.


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15 Oct 2015, 3:45 am

I live in a social democracy. I'd like to point out that these countries are becoming less and less socialist, and part of that has to do with immigration. Also, no capitalist system can escape the law of compounding interest - there needs to be some pretty drastic redistribution going on to counteract its effect.

It's really a question of how comfortable people are with the idea of poverty; do you think some people (including their children) deserve it or not? Do you think that even though people don't deserve it, it's really not something you are responsible for? It has a lot to do with whether you identify with your nation or not. But people who receive a lot of help from their state tend to identify more with it.



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15 Oct 2015, 3:58 am

Spiderpig wrote:
Tell that to those who identify as conservatives and Judeo-Christian. I'm neither.


If you're not a conservative, then what are you?


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15 Oct 2015, 4:29 am

I've been giving it some thought and I think I can frame my argument better.

There are many aspects of an economy where there is a lot of room for innovation. For these goods and services, a private run open market with health competition (no monopolies) will tend to force the providers to innovate on price, quality, and fit with peoples needs (or at least wants).

There are some goods and services, however, that are just flat commodities with little room for innovation. In these, there tends to be a race to the bottom, and the economies of scale tend to produce draconian monopolies. In these cases, it makes more sense for the government to take over.

Highways fall into the latter. You can only have one road on a given patch of land. Maintaining it isn't likely to be a viable business, and there's no way to have competition.

Similarly, you can argue that trains fall into the latter as well, although they are often run as a public/private partnership.

Airplanes have a lot of room for innovation in routes, timetables, organization, services and interior design. We have a lot of private companies in the US providing flight services on local, regional, national and international scales.

Health care is a special case. You health care decisions aren't (or at least shouldn't be) economically motivated. They are ideally based on the best current evidence for the efficacy and safety of the available treatments. That means that while there is a lot of innovation in medicine, it's not of an economic nature. You should be picking you surgeon based on their track record with the procedure, not the quality of their latest advertising campaign or whether they honor coupons. In this situation, the economies of scale offered by a single system win out.

Another "Invisible socialism" that we've had in the US for a while are the national labs. Thomas Edison invented the modern industrial laboratory. Toward the end of his career he pointed out to government officials that there were some developments that they couldn't trust the private sector to develop. Private labs are inherently risk averse, and will avoid projects that are either too big or take too long. Under his advice, government labs like Naval Research Lab, Sandia National Labs, the National Institutes of Standards and Technology, and DARPA were born. They're the primary reason we have things like the internet (DARPA), atomic clocks (NIST), GPS (NRL, but requires NISTs atomic clocks), PHP (NIST), Satellite communications, etc.



Neotenous Nordic
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15 Oct 2015, 6:42 am

America could afford socialism if they didn't bankrupt themselves fighting someone elses war in the middle east which has resulted in trillions of debt with interest that is impossible to pay back.

Here in Norway, we can, or could, afford socialism because we don't spend so much money on "foreign policies" and have had a surplus from the petroleum industry. But the petroleum industry is gradually being phased out, and a large portion of immigrants are instant welfare clients, so the welfare bubble will burst eventually. The standard of living is already decreasing, and will continue to do so.

The welfare state has been operating under the false surplus of the petroleum industry, assuming it will last forever. Even if it wasn't being phased out, it is a non-renewable resource. When the welfare state is set up to operate under an imaginary surplus that could be exhausted overnight, there is not enough time to adjust, and it will collapse.

Perhaps phasing out the petroleum industry gradually is the common sense thing to do, because then the welfare poicies can be adjusted accordingly so as to avoid a sudden and brutal collapse.

These are important aspects to consider. Proponents of socialism are often idealists, failing to take into consideration "money in, money out", and the problem of welfare states often seem to be a lack of planning around sustainable and long term sources of income. Fossile fuels are anything but that.

If America wasn't so hell bent on being world police, they could probably afford Obamacare. Heck, you'd be hard pressed to come up with any argument against it once the constant drain in the economy that is warmongering is no longer there.

Let them fight their own wars.



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15 Oct 2015, 12:34 pm

Neotenous Nordic wrote:
America could afford socialism if they didn't bankrupt themselves fighting someone elses war in the middle east which has resulted in trillions of debt with interest that is impossible to pay back.

Here in Norway, we can, or could, afford socialism because we don't spend so much money on "foreign policies" and have had a surplus from the petroleum industry. But the petroleum industry is gradually being phased out, and a large portion of immigrants are instant welfare clients, so the welfare bubble will burst eventually. The standard of living is already decreasing, and will continue to do so.

The welfare state has been operating under the false surplus of the petroleum industry, assuming it will last forever. Even if it wasn't being phased out, it is a non-renewable resource. When the welfare state is set up to operate under an imaginary surplus that could be exhausted overnight, there is not enough time to adjust, and it will collapse.

Perhaps phasing out the petroleum industry gradually is the common sense thing to do, because then the welfare poicies can be adjusted accordingly so as to avoid a sudden and brutal collapse.

These are important aspects to consider. Proponents of socialism are often idealists, failing to take into consideration "money in, money out", and the problem of welfare states often seem to be a lack of planning around sustainable and long term sources of income. Fossile fuels are anything but that.

If America wasn't so hell bent on being world police, they could probably afford Obamacare. Heck, you'd be hard pressed to come up with any argument against it once the constant drain in the economy that is warmongering is no longer there.

Let them fight their own wars.


As a Yank, I agree.


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