which bathroom do transgender people use?

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Sopho
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22 Apr 2007, 3:24 pm

But it should be nobody else's business whether someone has a penis or not. A woman who is biologically male should still be allowed to use a women's toilet, nobody else would even need to know.

jimservo
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22 Apr 2007, 3:38 pm

Sopho_Soph wrote:

But it should be nobody else's business whether someone has a penis or not. A woman who is biologically male should still be allowed to use a women's toilet, nobody else would even need to know.

A person with a penis is not a women, regardless of their psychology.

Sopho
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22 Apr 2007, 3:40 pm

A person with a penis is not female
They can still be a woman
Gender is a social construct

jimservo
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22 Apr 2007, 3:50 pm

Sopho_Soph wrote:

A person with a penis is not female
They can still be a woman
Gender is a social construct

I completely and utterly disagree. The scientific evidence in this area is irrefutable that men and women are distinct.

Sopho
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22 Apr 2007, 3:53 pm

jimservo wrote:

I completely and utterly disagree. The scientific evidence in this area is irrefutable that men and women are distinct.

That's sex, not gender.
I'm not disputing that there are differences between male and female. I just mean that someone can be a woman, regalrdless of their biological sex.

jimservo
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22 Apr 2007, 4:19 pm

Sopho_Soph wrote:

That's sex, not gender.
I'm not disputing that there are differences between male and female. I just mean that someone can be a woman, regalrdless of their biological sex.

Fair enough. My disagreement is in the separation of the two terms (ie: the introduction of the term gender as a alternative to sex rather then a counterpart). Perhaps for this debate to continue in earnest we can clarify our two positions. I do not believe the differences seen between the sexes (or genders, if you prefer) are primarily social constructs, but natural results of brain chemistry. Do you differ on this?

Please don't take this as a demand to continue the intellectual discussion as I appreciate that others have other concerns to consider.

Sopho
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22 Apr 2007, 4:35 pm

jimservo wrote:

I believe that it is a combination of both brain chemistry/hormones and social construction. But I also believe that this only applies to the majority. Most males may be X, Y and Z and most females may be A, B and C but that doesn't necessarily mean that some may not feel that they psychologically fit these interpretations. So, in most cases male/ female and man/woman run parallel to each other. But with people who are transgendered, physically they may be male or female, but in every other way they feel they are a different gender. So their physical sex does not match who they feel they are psychologically.
I don't think I explained myself well there, sorry; I haven't been getting much sleep lately.

jimservo
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22 Apr 2007, 4:50 pm

Sopho_Soph wrote:

I don't think I explained myself well there, sorry; I haven't been getting much sleep lately.

No need to apologize. I understood the points you intended to make, I believe. I think I am somewhat tired myself which will likely delay any response I may have.

kitrona
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23 Apr 2007, 5:31 am

jimservo wrote:

In my opinion, someone who has male genitalia should use the men's rule. I suppose I'm "old fashioned" in this regard

Who are you appointing to check genetalia, then?

jimservo
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23 Apr 2007, 7:19 am

The Minister of Genitalia, under the Department of Sexual Curiosities [/not serious]

ADDENDUM: I meant to say "bathroom." I have no clue why I said "rule."

janicka
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26 Apr 2007, 12:21 pm

Sopho_Soph wrote:

A person with a penis is not female
They can still be a woman
Gender is a social construct

I agree with that.

And I actually worked with a man who lived full-time as a woman. She actually started to take the hormones and have the various surgeries while I worked with her. But she had to live full-time as a woman for quite some time before she could get all that done. During that period, she considered herself a woman - that included using the women's restroom.

And, honestly, I don't think that it ever occurred to women that were in a public restroom that they might be using a bathroom with a biological male when she walked in there.

Santa_Claus
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26 Apr 2007, 9:13 pm

If a the individual transgender looks like a male, then they will probably go to the mens' restroom and the individual transgender looks like a female then they will probably go to the ladys' restroom.

techstepgenr8tion
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29 Apr 2007, 10:41 am

Jai wrote:

I agree with Soph. It seems that a transgendered individual would either use the restroom that is most comfortable for them, or use whichever one that would cause the least ruckus. For example, a man dressed as a woman would most likely use the ladies room, so as not to arouse the ire of the patrons of the men's room.

You'd think they would but wouldn't he still be arrested for being a guy in a women's bathroom if someone figured it out?

Marrshu
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29 Apr 2007, 12:24 pm

Being a transgendered person myself, I can safely say we would use the bathroom of the gender that we are presenting.

In other words, if we pass as a female, go into the female, if not, use the males.

janicka
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29 Apr 2007, 2:36 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

You'd think they would but wouldn't he still be arrested for being a guy in a women's bathroom if someone figured it out?

I doubt that. Even if he was arrested, I highly doubt that he'd end up charged with anything or going to jail, because as far as he's concerned (and the rest of the world who sees him) he is not a he. Chances are that if he were living full time as a "she", there would be a cadre of physicians and psychologists to testify that he's really a she.

Sopho
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29 Apr 2007, 2:52 pm

Police should have more important things to be doing than checking for a penis in a non-penis toilet.

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