For those of you against BLM

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The BLM ideals are excellent:
http://blacklivesmatter.com/guiding-principles

The challenge though is the black-and-white thinking, no pun intended, that whenever a young black man dies at the hands of the police, it's murder. I'd like to hear from police officers, and especially black police officers, about how to handle the very real danger they face, how to make better judgments, ETC. Are some, maybe even many, of these deaths brought about because of racism? No doubt! That's not the whole story though, and the whole story doesn't get told in our world of 2-second videos, sensational headlines, and media soundbites.

I don't care about appeals to emotion. I care about the facts. Yes, it is completely understandable that these mothers are upset and want justice, but that doesn't mean the things they believe are correct.

All 3 of these mothers' children were not even killed by white cops, so how does this fit their narrative? Only in the case of Sandra Bland were the cops even involved in what happened, but she was determined by a third-party autopsy to have committed suicide. Also, the police officer who initially detained her (who is Hispanic, by the way) was placed on administrative leave for failing to follow the proper procedures for traffic stops; he was later fired. The FBI investigation also determined that the police station had not been doing hourly checks on the inmates. So the cops were not completely innocent in this case, but the fact is that she killed herself, and there is no reason to believe this is evidence of racist white cops.

In the case of Jordan Davis, the guy who shot him was a 45-year-old software developer who was there for a wedding. Maybe he was racist, maybe not. But he does not represent law enforcement in any way, and he was sentenced to life in prison with no chance of parole.

In the case of Trayvon Martin, he was shot by a neighborhood watch volunteer, George Zimmerman, because he was bashing Zimmerman's head into the curb. Zimmerman shouldn't have followed the guy, which the police instructed him not to do. They told him to let them handle it. He went against the instructions of law enforcement, and that is what got Trayvon killed (besides the obvious fact that he was assaulting him).

One of the mothers in the video said something along the lines of, "When a young black life is lost, it is a national loss." So much hypocrisy here. First of all, she is implying that black lives matter more than others regardless of the circumstances surrounding their death. Even if they were assaulting the person who shot them, they still matter more than other lives. But also, if people cared about young black lives, they would care about the fact that the leading cause of death for young black males is homicide. That number is insanely higher than the number of blacks killed by police, without even factoring in that most of those shootings are justified.

So no, I was not moved by their empty words.


I knew this thread was aimed primarily at me as soon as I saw the title. So I figured there would be some misrepresentation of things I have said.

I did not say a black person advocating for an end to police violence is delusional. First of all, BLM does not represent every black person just because they claim to be a pro-black movement. Second, the message of BLM is not "end police violence". It's, "End white supremacy and anti-black racism and violence in the police." That is a very different message. When is the last time you saw anyone from BLM talking about the cases of police brutality and shootings with white victims? There are more cases with white victims, around twice as many, so where is the support for those people? The answer is they will never talk about them, because it doesn't support their narrative that the police are targeting innocent blacks.


I've pointed out before that this is a false analogy. You are comparing black people to people who have a mental disorder. Black people do not have a common "black experience" that makes everything hard for them. They do not all have the same opinions of law enforcement, and we shouldn't accept one black person's experience as representative of them all. That is a ridiculous idea, and it is condescendingly racist. You are implying that we need to treat black people as if they are incapable of doing some things, as if blacks are so different that we feel the need to treat them with more care and sympathy than we do with other humans. You are advocating for different behavior based on the color of someone's skin. It doesn't matter whether the difference is treating them more nicely or meanly, it's still demeaning and condescending.

I'm not saying I deny any individual's experience, I'm saying I treat them as individuals, not as part of the collective "black experience".


Racism exists because humans are social and tribal. And once again, I do not judge individual people based on stats or ignorance. But when claims are being made about quantifiable things like systemic racism and unjustified police violence towards blacks, and the facts don't add up, I am going to call it out, even if the person making the claim says they have experienced racism from the police themselves.

Just look at the stats if you don't believe me. https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... shootings/

I would suggest anyone who thinks I'm denying "black experience" to read this. Denying or minimizing the high level of crime in the black community is denying and minimizing the experiences of black people. An experience that is a lot more common among blacks than unjustified police violence, I might add.

Not every black person is involved in the crimes in their neighborhoods - I dare say, most are not. But you wouldn't know that from the suspicion that the police automatically hold them under.

This again? Nobody should have to be afraid that they or a family member is going to get shot by criminals, and yet that fear is a lot more rational in the black community than getting shot for "driving while black".

Also, who is saying that you should have to be afraid of law enforcement? That is a straw man. I have never heard anyone say that in my life. Nobody thinks the police should hurt or kill innocent people, and everyone believes that police should have a higher standard of behavior than civilians.

The point of Black Lives Matter is to end police racism. They label any case of a black man being shot by a white police officer racist, even if there is no evidence racism had anything to do with it. Just because there isn't a clear reason for what happened does not mean racism is the explanation. That is the same as the god of the gaps argument for the existence of god. Science can't explain something perfectly, therefore god. Except in the case of Black Lives Matter, it is: evidence for police behavior being justified is insufficient, white officer and black victim, therefore racism. That's not how it works.

I never said all of them were. That's another straw man. Do I need to put "NOT ALL" after everything I say about black people? It should be quite obvious that is not what I'm saying.

Police suspect them more because they are so much more likely to commit crimes than other demographics. You don't think it's understandable that police would be more wary and suspicious of a group of people that is known to have a high rate of violent crime? That's insanity.

Holmes-

Yes, that again; and it's not a strawman.
You yourself said it: cops are more likely to look with suspicion at blacks because black neighborhoods are crime ridden. Or in other words - - wait for it - - wait for it - - they suspect black people in general of being criminals. Yes, black people who have done nothing wrong have every right to feel afraid of the police because of that. There have been black police officers, when off duty, who have been physically abused by other cops, till their identities had been established. The sole black Republican in the US senate has recounted how he had been pulled over by the police seven times in the past year. What white person goes through that, especially if he or she is innocent of any wrongdoing?
Yes, all people - white or black - shouldn't have to be afraid of being killed by criminals. But the relationship black Americans have with the police is one where they genuinely fear being hassled, arrested, or even killed by the very people who are supposed to protect them. What's not to understand, unless you just don't want to?

It is a strawman, because nobody has made the argument that black people should have to be afraid of the police. Yet by saying over and over in response to me, "But they shouldn't have to be afraid of police!" you are implying that I believe they should be afraid of police, or that I don't think police brutality and unjustified killings happen, or that I don't care when it does. That is not my view, and I'm getting very tired of explaining that.

If you don't see why a cop would be more suspicious of a young black male than an old white woman, I don't think anything I say is going to make a difference. Yes, it doesn't always lead to fair treatment, but the police can't be perfect, and they are risking their lives every day. If you read the article posted by Chichikov on this thread, you would get the perspective of a black police officer on this issue. You claim to be concerned about the perspectives of black people, but from what I can tell you didn't even read it. There have also been other black police officers who have spoken out openly against Black Lives Matter. Don't their perspectives matter? Shouldn't we be listening to both sides of the story?

You seem to want me to accept BLM and their ideas just because they claim to support an end to police violence and racism, without any care for the hateful rhetoric they are constantly spewing and the violence that has resulted from it. They don't care about police violence. They only care if it was a white cop and an "innocent" black victim, usually described as doing something innocuous like buying Skittles or selling CDs, even though there is always much more to the stories. They don't mention unfair treatment of white people, Hispanic people etc. by police, even though this happens more often than it does with blacks. They are fine with labeling someone a racist murderer when the available evidence is not sufficient to prove such a thing true.

If you still do not understand where I'm coming from on this issue at all, I'm inclined to believe you are purposely ignoring or misunderstanding my viewpoints.

Also, I would like to point out that there actually is a group of people that most definitely should be afraid of police: violent criminals. Is it a fault of the police that blacks contribute the majority of violent crime in America, despite being only 13.2% of the population? No, that doesn't mean it's ok to assume any individual black person is a criminal based on their skin color, but it is understandable why a police officer would be more suspicious of a young black male in a hoodie than of a white guy in a suit and tie. In the experience of police, one of those people is much more likely to shoot at you and exhibit violent behavior. Why is this not even somewhat understandable to BLM supporters?

You are correct - blacks should not have to be afraid of the police. But they are, and for most of their history as Americans, nobody has cared about the unequal and unfair treatment by the cops that they've had to live under.
I am not accusing you of saying blacks should live in fear of cops, but rather, that black Americans themselves live in fear of them. And, yes, plenty of innocent blacks get hassled. If they haven't done anything illegal, then the police shouldn't have any business pulling them over, gleefully hoping to find something to bust said black person for.
And as a matter of fact, I've heard plenty of police abuse stories involving whites and Latinos, and they are just as wrong. The difference is, blacks and Latinos are seemingly singled out as potential criminals in a way whites are not. What if one were to look at your state of Missouri, and considering the racial and social history there, concluded that all the white people there were automatically racists and crackers? Would that be fair? How would it make you feel? That's exactly the same way black Americans feel about being stereotyped as violent criminals.

some things like the Mann act ? http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=88104308
(just one of the ex)and it's still inspirational (not in a good way)

I was typing a response and the page refreshed and I lost it. But here is the basic gist. You keep generalizing things such as: all black people are afraid of police, all white cops who pull over a black man are "gleefully hoping to find something to bust him", all white cops who kill black people without a simple, obvious reason must be racist etc. You are failing to see that your view is very simplistic and is based solely on anecdotal evidence. These things are not simple, and cannot be explained accurately without considering many factors and listening to different sides of the story. BLM assumes that race/racism is the only factor. It is childish, it is playing the victim, and it leads to harmful behavior.

I am not sure why you still can't see where I'm coming from, but I've explained these things ad nauseam. I would much rather discuss things like, "Why is there so much crime in the black community, and what can be done about it?" That would be a useful, interesting discussion; much more helpful than talking about how racist we think white cops are. But I don't see many people here willing to have such a conversation. You still have yet to admit that black-on-black crime is a much bigger threat to black lives than police are. Even though it's completely true. Not only that, the crime rate is what leads to the higher likelihood of being targeted by police. So if we wanted to decrease police violence against blacks, wouldn't we want them to stop committing so many crimes first? Maybe if so many of them weren't giving police a justification to shoot them, there wouldn't be as many being wrongfully shot.

Of course black-on-black violence is a bigger problem than cop-on-black violence. But the significant fact is, blacks by and large fear the police and don't believe said police have interest in their welfare because of the bad relationship they have with law enforcement.
And no, not every white cop is a racist, but far too many interactions with cops and black citizens are so negative that blacks have little reason to give the police the benefit of the doubt anymore.
Incidentally, percentage wise, whites use drugs as much as do blacks, but you don't see cops cracking down on white neighborhoods nearly as often as they do black neighborhoods. In my fifty years here on earth, I have known white potheads (before it was legal here in Washington state), meth heads, and the like, and not a single one of them (with the exception of my brother-in-law) ever got arrested for drug use or possession. Sure, there are whites who go to prison on drug convictions, but not to nearly the extent that blacks do.

I don't know where you are getting the idea that most blacks fear the police. I have not seen any evidence of this, but you keep saying it over and over. Also, you ignore the fact that many of them are criminals, and therefore should fear the police. It's because of their actions, not their skin color.

Even putting that problem aside, I don't care what they feel or believe. I care about what the facts say. And the facts do not support these ideas. Cops do not go around looking for reasons to harm or kill innocent black people. That is an insane claim to make and there is not a shred of evidence to support it.


You keep making claims that you have no evidence for. You are just assuming that blacks experience tons of unfair treatment from police, and you ignore the fact that maybe all the crime in their community has a little bit to do with police targeting them. If you know that one demographic commits way more crime than another, you are going to have different responses to them. You are going to treat one as more of a threat, and you would be completely justified in doing so. If I saw a group of young black men in hoodies walking towards me on the street at night, I would feel more afraid than if it was a group of white girls. Any rational and intelligent person would, because it is a fact that young black men commit a huge amount of violent crime, whereas white girls are much less likely to be violent.

The solution to that response is for black people to stop committing so many crimes. I know that sounds racist to guilty white liberals, but that is the truth. There is a real, quantifiable reason that people, including law enforcement, are more fearful of black people than they are of others, and it's because of the actions of other black people. You say that black people are afraid of police, but you don't seem to care that the police are afraid of black people, even though that fear is much more justified. An innocent police officer is much more likely to die at the hands of a black man than an innocent black man is to die at the hands of a police officer. And even less often would the cop be accurately termed a racist.

The truth is, what you and BLM are bringing up is a not a real problem. Police don't unfairly target black people because they love killing n****rs; they justifiably target black people because they commit more crimes, and by targeting certain demographics they save more lives. Yes, there are issues with police brutality and corruption in the criminal justice system, but BLM is not talking about these things. They only care when there was a black victim that they can portray as an innocent child or "gentle giant", when in fact they are leaving out many crucial details. As long as it fits their narrative they don't care what they have to lie about.

If black people in BLM cared about black lives, they would be talking about reducing violent crime in their own communities. But instead they want to blame all their problems on white people, and be openly racist towards white people and condescendingly racist towards black people. I am opposed to that. I don't know how many times I am going to need to say this before you understand. You continually cite the experiences of a few people you know, but that is not going to cut it. You need hard evidence. You need to address my arguments directly rather than saying the same thing over and over about how it's their experience, I'm denying their experience etc. I don't CARE about their experience, I care about facts. If you don't have those, then you won't convince me.

Hello, Mr. Holmes.

Let me say that I think you're okay personally. We're just arguing ideas, that's all.

How many black people do you know, and are your friends? I know many black people, and quite a few of them are my friends. My wife is a black Caribbean.

I think it's important to actually KNOW black people in order to gauge how black people respond to things. I've known many black people. And many of them--whether middle, upper, or whatever class, have a visceral fear of the police. It might not be rational, it might not be based upon statistics--but the fear exists.

Yes, I would say most black people do not fit the "black stereotype." Unfortunately, even those who don't fit the stereotype are harassed by cops when they drive in white neighborhoods.

Most cops are probably not racist; but there are enough racist cops for them to make an impact.

Why can't you at least consider another viewpoint other than your own? That's part of being an intelligent person.

And no, I'm not saying you're not intelligent (you are)--but part of being an intelligent person is being flexible. Is evolving from a certain point.

And realizing that statistics are not the be-all, end-all of everything. Statistics only reveal things from a limited perspective. They don't reflect the experiences of individuals. They only reflect the experiences of a "model," rather than of a person. Yes, its much more likely that a black person will harm another black person. But cops are relief upon to provide protection, and they do, most of the time.

But there are still instances where, for whatever reason, cops will do extrajudicial things to black people, profile black people, because they are black. It's a fact of life.

Of course, it doesn't happen as often as black-on-black crime. But it happens enough for there to be a collective fear of the police on the part of many black people.

Last edited by kraftiekortie on 29 Jul 2016, 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Why does it matter if I have black friends? Even if I had 20 black friends, that doesn't mean I can speak on behalf of black people. I'm not going to go out and make black friends just so I can gauge "how black people respond to things", as if that makes any sense to begin with. You can't just take what a few black people say and apply it to them all.


Evidence? Your black friends are not evidence. Even assuming that your version of what they experienced is 100% accurate and correct, you can't just extrapolate their ideas and experiences to represent that of all or even most black people. Those were their experiences.

Plus, what is your definition of harassment? Pulling them over? Big f*****g deal. That is not harassment, and it's a petty thing to complain about. If the cops were pulling them over to wrongfully arrest them or call them racial slurs or beat them, maybe I'd be inclined to believe you, but with all the people eagerly searching for the next white-cop-black-victim case so they can further their political agenda, I would think something like that would have surfaced by now.


Can you prove that, or are you just going to say it over and over? Maybe a lot of the racist cops are black or Hispanic. How do you know they're all racist against black people?


I could say the same thing to you. The thing is, I've actually done research and looked at statistics, studies etc. that support what I'm currently saying. I believe what I believe because the evidence overwhelmingly supports it. If you want to convince me, I can be convinced, but you're going to have to produce a substantial amount of evidence that shows I'm wrong. Telling me your friends experienced racism does not matter, because first of all it is not verifiable evidence of something, and second, you haven't even told me what supposedly happened to them; you're just telling me the cops were mean to them in some way. That's meaningless.

I've had cops get rough and forceful with me physically. I got stopped, questioned and followed by a police officer while walking to the store to get soda. Do I complain about being profiled for wearing a hoodie? No. Do I complain that I was doing nothing wrong at the time (even though that's the truth), and that they were being unfair? No. I was respectful to the officers, and both situations were resolved with no issue. That is my experience with police.

So does my experience matter? Or maybe you think I just can't understand, because I'm white and don't have black friends. I buy weed from a black guy, does that count? How many black friends do I need to have before I can truly understand how hard it is to be black?

What matters more, the experience of a few of your black friends, or the statistics that show crime rates among different demographics? Does the data that shows ALL of the cases of police killings of people in the US, and the circumstances surrounding the situations, matter to you? I would say that the data and statistics, and having some understanding of law enforcement procedures, probably paint a more accurate picture of what's going on. That is what my opinion is based on.