Page 2 of 3 [ 33 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 87,510
Location: Queens, NYC

01 Sep 2020, 9:44 am

How about state-sponsored NON-theism?

That's how communist governments have manifested themselves.

We don't want either--state-sponsored theism and state-sponsored non-theism.



Mr Reynholm
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Feb 2019
Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,363
Location: Tulsa, OK

01 Sep 2020, 11:42 am

I disagree with your premise. Its not an "either/or" situation.



KT67
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2019
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,807

01 Sep 2020, 11:49 am

I'm an atheist but I don't like the idea of a state enforced atheism. It would just lead to people hiding their beliefs and persecution of religious people who hadn't done anything wrong.

It would also set up a hierarchy and although I'm good with a hierarchy to help people or to punish people who've been hurting others, that isn't always the case when it comes to religious people.

Encouraging people towards religious beliefs which are more socialist and tolerant in nature? Great. Encourage Christians for eg to care more about 'love thy neighbour' than about Leviticus 18.


_________________
Not actually a girl
He/him


CubsBullsBears
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Jul 2016
Age: 25
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,025
Location: Iowa

01 Sep 2020, 1:30 pm

KT67 wrote:
I'm an atheist but I don't like the idea of a state enforced atheism. It would just lead to people hiding their beliefs and persecution of religious people who hadn't done anything wrong.

It would also set up a hierarchy and although I'm good with a hierarchy to help people or to punish people who've been hurting others, that isn't always the case when it comes to religious people.

Encouraging people towards religious beliefs which are more socialist and tolerant in nature? Great. Encourage Christians for eg to care more about 'love thy neighbour' than about Leviticus 18.
I suppose this is a valid point. People of faith just believe too firmly in their religion that they won’t even accept even the best of arguments against it.



eyelessshiver
Toucan
Toucan

Joined: 12 Jun 2020
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 297

01 Sep 2020, 1:53 pm

China isn't really communist anymore, though. It's somewhere between communism and capitalism (some would say it qualifies as capitalist either way). Communism means no free market and no private property (China has both). China has made huge economic progress over the last few decades, coming out of a very dark time. Communism is an ugly word for various reasons, but it doesn't describe the current state of China's economy and government very well. Right now it is an interesting hybrid of capitalist and communist policies which have evolved over time. Many large companies are still state owned. What's probably more important to understand is that they do have very strict laws there, but prison is not nearly as bad (it seems like a cakewalk compared to American prisons). There isn't much crime. Also, things are very expensive. A small to medium sized house costs 1-2 million USD, so you can see why many Chinese people want to come here to earn their living. Their education system sounds efficient, and Chinese have higher test scores than other places by a long shot. They're smarter than we are on paper. Their culture seems strangely puritanical in many ways, despite being unreligious. They have some traditional and conservative values, like no sex before marriage, which are pretty commonplace. Homosexuality is only just starting to be accepted somewhat recently. They have massive censorship and the world's biggest firewall on their internet. You can't just look up or say anything you want. It's pretty "square" compared to liberal America.



DeathEmperor413
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 2020
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 881

01 Sep 2020, 1:58 pm

eyelessshiver wrote:
China isn't really communist anymore, though. It's somewhere between communism and capitalism (some would say it qualifies as capitalist either way). Communism means no free market and no private property (China has both). China has made huge economic progress over the last few decades, coming out of a very dark time. Communism is an ugly word for various reasons, but it doesn't describe the current state of China's economy and government very well. Right now it is an interesting hybrid of capitalist and communist policies which have evolved over time. Many large companies are still state owned. What's probably more important to understand is that they do have very strict laws there, but prison is not nearly as bad (it seems like a cakewalk compared to American prisons). There isn't much crime. Also, things are very expensive. A small to medium sized house costs 1-2 million USD, so you can see why many Chinese people want to come here to earn their living. Their education system sounds efficient, and Chinese have higher test scores than other places by a long shot. They're smarter than we are on paper. Their culture seems strangely puritanical in many ways, despite being unreligious. They have some traditional and conservative values, like no sex before marriage, which are pretty commonplace. Homosexuality is only just starting to be accepted somewhat recently. They have massive censorship and the world's biggest firewall on their internet. You can't just look up or say anything you want. It's pretty "square" compared to liberal America.


That's interesting to know. :) As strange as it sounds, I almost feel as though I would be more comfortable in a society like that. Having strict rules and a routine to follow is something that I think would suit me as an Aspie.


_________________
♥♦♣♠


Wolfram87
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Feb 2015
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,976
Location: Sweden

01 Sep 2020, 1:59 pm

Considering China's propensity to lie in order to make themsleves look good, I find it hard to trust their numbers.


_________________
I'm bored out of my skull, let's play a different game. Let's pay a visit down below and cast the world in flame.


DeathEmperor413
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 2020
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 881

01 Sep 2020, 2:03 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
Considering China's propensity to lie in order to make themsleves look good, I find it hard to trust their numbers.


Well the USA is in good company regarding lies and propaganda too...

Maybe not to the extreme of China, Russia, and North Korea. But we're close.


_________________
♥♦♣♠


eyelessshiver
Toucan
Toucan

Joined: 12 Jun 2020
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 297

01 Sep 2020, 2:44 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
Considering China's propensity to lie in order to make themsleves look good, I find it hard to trust their numbers.


It's good to not prejudice people. Innocent until proven guilty. There are plenty of reasons to trust their numbers.

Take one cross-section, for analysis. The International Math Olympiad.

Who has won the most? All members gold: China (12 wins, including last year), followed by USA (4 wins). They also rank the highest with team score 20 versus Russia 16, USA 8. Overall Gold: 157 to USA 130. Obviously you can't cheat in these competitions.

It's not because they cheat. It's because they study way more than we do, take way more tests, and really value math, science, and education in general. They're very driven to succeed.

That's not cheating, that's winning, fair and square.

Of course people in China lie and cheat, they aren't perfect or anything like that. But overall, yeah...they are smarter in the academic sense.



DeathEmperor413
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 2020
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 881

01 Sep 2020, 3:26 pm

eyelessshiver wrote:
Wolfram87 wrote:
Considering China's propensity to lie in order to make themsleves look good, I find it hard to trust their numbers.


It's good to not prejudice people. Innocent until proven guilty. There are plenty of reasons to trust their numbers.

Take one cross-section, for analysis. The International Math Olympiad.

Who has won the most? All members gold: China (12 wins, including last year), followed by USA (4 wins). They also rank the highest with team score 20 versus Russia 16, USA 8. Overall Gold: 157 to USA 130. Obviously you can't cheat in these competitions.

It's not because they cheat. It's because they study way more than we do, take way more tests, and really value math, science, and education in general. They're very driven to succeed.

That's not cheating, that's winning, fair and square.

Of course people in China lie and cheat, they aren't perfect or anything like that. But overall, yeah...they are smarter in the academic sense.



And let's face it, America's public education has always sucked. Our school teachers are little more than glorified babysitters whose real job is to watch our nation's children while their parents work their asses off for the system during the day. And our government makes it so hard for our teachers to teach our youth anything useful unless your parents are rich and can afford a private school.


_________________
♥♦♣♠


emotrtkey
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

Joined: 12 Aug 2020
Gender: Male
Posts: 445

01 Sep 2020, 3:44 pm

State-enforced atheism is what they had in the USSR. It meant persecuting people for following God. Christian priests had to flee to other countries to avoid being murdered for being a Christian. If you want to know what communism and state-enforced atheism is like, go to China. It's not quite fully communist and atheism isn't fully enforced but it's probably the country that is closest to it.



DeathEmperor413
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 2020
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 881

01 Sep 2020, 3:46 pm



This time soviet music! :salut: :salut: :salut:


_________________
♥♦♣♠


eyelessshiver
Toucan
Toucan

Joined: 12 Jun 2020
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 297

01 Sep 2020, 4:03 pm

emotrtkey wrote:
State-enforced atheism is what they had in the USSR. It meant persecuting people for following God. Christian priests had to flee to other countries to avoid being murdered for being a Christian. If you want to know what communism and state-enforced atheism is like, go to China. It's not quite fully communist and atheism isn't fully enforced but it's probably the country that is closest to it.


I definitely don't think it's right to murder anyone. But, I think it would be beneficial to society if a lot of obsolete, antiquated religions were phased out, the same way civilizations move on and evolve to new stages of understanding and enlightenment. If we put a greater emphasis on knowledge and understanding about our physical world, people will be less likely to try to fill in the missing information with supernatural and superstitious ideas.



DeathEmperor413
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 2020
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 881

01 Sep 2020, 4:13 pm

eyelessshiver wrote:
emotrtkey wrote:
State-enforced atheism is what they had in the USSR. It meant persecuting people for following God. Christian priests had to flee to other countries to avoid being murdered for being a Christian. If you want to know what communism and state-enforced atheism is like, go to China. It's not quite fully communist and atheism isn't fully enforced but it's probably the country that is closest to it.


I definitely don't think it's right to murder anyone. But, I think it would be beneficial to society if a lot of obsolete, antiquated religions were phased out, the same way civilizations move on and evolve to new stages of understanding and enlightenment. If we put a greater emphasis on knowledge and understanding about our physical world, people will be less likely to try to fill in the missing information with supernatural and superstitious ideas.


I'm starting to agree more and more with this.


_________________
♥♦♣♠


GGPViper
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,880

01 Sep 2020, 4:27 pm

One should also keep in mind that China has had very, very, very, very, very, very, very bad experiences with Christianity.

In the middle of the 19th century, Hong Xiuquan - based on teachings from Protestant Christian mercenaries - started the Taiping Rebellion, which was a massive civil war with a total death toll around 20-30 million.



DeathEmperor413
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 2020
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 881

01 Sep 2020, 4:43 pm

GGPViper wrote:
One should also keep in mind that China has had very, very, very, very, very, very, very bad experiences with Christianity.


What country has not?


_________________
♥♦♣♠