The War in Iraq...

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You obviously wish to make a point, rumio, so please don't hold back!

Its easy for George W and others like him to act like a cowboy and start wars because they dont have to live (and die) with the reality of war. Where was he in the vietnam war? I believe daddy got him into "home guard" just like lots of other rich kids. At least Richard the Lionheart had the balls to lead his crusade on the frontline. If someone wants me to be prepared to die for their war then they had better make damn sure that they are prepared to do the same.

the point being that most people in the poll feel less safe (and consequently sleep less easily in their beds) following the invasion of Iraq so I can't see how nuking Iranian nuclear plants is going to aid their nocturnal bed-based unconscious activity

erm.. could you make that sound just a teensy bit less ambiguous, rumio? otherwise i shall have to snigger.

hrmm, I argue this stuff often on large political and military forums... all I'm saying no good comes from it. I'm used to hitting people with large breakdowns of history and analysis and in the end they always enjoy calling you a ret*d and so forth, so on. It's quite fruitless, I assure you. The point was I could show you forums where conversations like these degenerate in about 3 pages and must be locked. Usually they are locked instantly.

enjoy your debate (and don't call each other names for heaven's sake)

maybe that's where you're going wrong

I think he just means to keep it cool and we don't want anyone loosing his or her head because that wouldn't be a very good thing to loose, would it now?

Well, rumio, a quick look at those polls shows how fickle public opinion is. I think when one day we all wake up to find Iran has functioning ICBM and high-yield nuclear weapon technology, we'll wish something had been done earlier. But, with any luck, the Israelis will do the job for us!

Btw, I didn't say "nuke", either.

i disagree. for a start, we are a different group of people. and secondly, we've proved that contentious issues needn't degenerate into flaming or personal attacks, and certainly not into a battlezone which needs to be locked. i refer you to the "white muslim" thread, for one (and the homosexuality thread seems to have calmed down, at last).

we NEED debate, so that people get a chance to air their views, and to listen to those of others. and so that it gets us thinking. if it's done in a civilised way, the worst that can happen here is that people have to agree to disagree. if it's not, then you only have to look around to see what happens when people DON'T debate and listen to others.

How can you tell when Politicians are Lying...? Their lips move..

Max Headroom

That was obvious to me since first election. I've hated the dumb bastard ever since.

Sophist at the time of the break of war it looks like most people were on Bush's side and prior to this year it seems the same. So does that mean that he should just pull out now that not everyone is supporting him??? Im not quite sure I get the purpose of what you were saying.

And Eamonn you are well aware that Roosevelt didnt fight in WWII Wilson in WWI or Lincoln In CW does that mean that we shouldnt have fought any of those wars either???[/img]

Its just as bad. Are you aching for a nuclear disaster? Perhaps you should read up on nuclear disasters like Chernobyl and near-disasters like Three Mile Island. Blowing up a nuclear plant would be catastrophic, and the whole planet would pay the price. All that radiation leakge doesn't just stay in one place, you know.

When people make ignorant, irrational comments like "let's nuke them" or "let's bomb their nuke plant" it tells me that person hasn't bothered to research the consequences of such actions. And if they have, they're just fools to say such outrageous things.

That was obvious to me since first election. I've hated the dumb ba***** ever since.[/quote]

And you, and I, and everyone else on this Forum let's him get away with it. Love him or hate him, apart from a lot of talk Bush actually acts, committs to action, win _lose or draw he actually takes the rap for whatever he does. Is anyone else here willing to do that? Or do we prefer 'catious debate and analysis' before committing to anything. I truly wonder. Debates and forumas are nice if tehy eventually lead to some kind of action, otherwise they are a waste of human potential.

I recently read a book by Phillip Slater (American), written in 1970, he gives an intelligent and elegant observation of American Society. What is disturbing in the book is that in actual fact nothing at all seems to have changed Politically at least, if not socially, since then, over the last 35 years

In fact things got worse. He describes the vietnam war spin that was presented by the White house at the time, such as:"There is no doubt that we are winning the War in Vietnam', and "things are improving on a daily basis in our war against the Vietcong' (Sound familiar?), he outlines the fact that America has alway had some form of Concentration Camp in operation, if not for the 'Reds under the Beds', then for the Japanese, and the fact that if Amercia doesn't have any enemies at one given point in time it will create some.

Neither our Primer Minister (John Howard) nor any of your Presidents since JFK have shown any kind of vision, nor ar they willing to lay their ass on the line, something the founders of the Civil rights movements back in the 60's and 70's were willing to do.

Its easy enough to sit in some nice apartment, munching on a Wendy burger and sucking on a can of Coke while writing commentaries on whats wrong with the War in Iraq, or the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. Its a step towards something more tangible if any of us were willing to forego our nice little Summer Vacation in some comfortable Beach Condo and decided to spend the time in Ramallah or some other Palestinian refugee camp in order to get a first hand view. Do that and I am willing to listen to your points of view.

Am I pissed off about something? you're damn right I am. While we are writing and debating and contributing to the Forum peple are dying uselessly.

I am going to stop now, my Wendy Burger is getting cold

Katze

good point, katze. whining on about stuff (and this goes for any issue, i believe) but doing nothing about it, however small, actually contributes to the problem/situation, etc.

not everyone can take part in such front line action as you suggest, but there's always something one can do - writing letters/emails, join groups (there are many online groups, before everyone howls) and find out where your skills would be useful, etc., etc.

apathy and feelings of "i can't make a difference" are a big part of where things go wrong in this world.

I don't know about the 'making a difference or not', Vivi. Noam Chomsky wrote years ago that the Truth will be known but it won't make any difference. I can't make any comments or draw any conclusions about the Israel-Palestine and Iraq conflict simply because I don't have access to all the Information nor will I ever be in the position to have complete access . Were I able to spend a few months there with the people I would at least get another point of view, not just the view of CNN and Al Jazeera

(By the way, bets are on that Martin Luther King wrote plenty of letters to the Governor of Mississippi about Racial injustice, no prizes for guessing where they ended up......)


Katze