Palestine Israel conflict?

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"Israel doesn't slaughter civilians as a policy"

Hrm, it still happens though and since they are seen as the so called "civilized" (democratic) people with the most destructive potential in the region, shouldn't we expect better from them?

I have been informed that people at this site rarely investigate material in depth but on the chance that someone is interested the site http://hrw.org/reports/2007/lebanon0907 ... c175028494

Gives a reasonable and thorough account of Israel's behavior in the recent Lebanon conflict. It is obvious that the IDF totally ignored civilian considerations and the illegal dispersal throughout Lebanon of cluster bombs that could only result in frightful deaths of innocents is only one example of Israel's misbehavior. That Israel claims concern for civilians is a total and blatant lie.

Well over 1000 Lebanese civilians were killed in the conflict. 43 Israelis were killed. But this does not imply that any death should be considered of no importance. Insofar as decent restraint is concerned the Israelis have nothing to be proud of. They could, of course, as nara 44 implies, atom bombed the country and saved a few Israeli lives temporarily congratulating themselves on their military power if not their humane restraint but I don't believe their exultation would last long considering world opinion. There is potential fanatic violence on both sides and it is in the interests of all that it be restrained and suppressed.

Obviously you are totally ignorant of the circumstances of the Lebanese conflict. Read up on it a bit before commenting.

Ah yes. And the cluster bombs?

Thanks for the information. No doubt you and many others suffered and that gives me no pleasure. This is what I have heard.

At around 8:07 AM local time (06:00 UTC) on 12 July 2006, Hezbollah launched diversionary rocket attacks toward Israeli military positions near the coast and near the border village of Zar'it[36] as well as on the Israeli town of Shlomi and other villages.[37] At the same time, a Hezbollah ground contingent crossed the border into Israeli territory and attacked two Israeli armoured Humvees patrolling on the Israeli side of the Israel-Lebanon border, near Zar'it, killing three, injuring two, and seizing two Israeli soldiers (master sergeant Ehud Goldwasser and first sergeant Eldad Regev).[36][38] Five more Israeli soldiers were killed later and a tank was destroyed on the Lebanese side of the border during an unsuccessful attempt to rescue the two seized soldiers.

Hezbollah named the attack "Operation Truthful Promise" after leader Hassan Nasrallah's public pledges over the prior year and a half to seize Israeli soldiers and swap them for four Lebanese held by Israel:

* Samir Kuntar (a Lebanese citizen captured during a terrorist attack and convicted of murdering civilians and police officers);
* Nasim Nisr (an Israeli/Lebanese citizen tried and convicted for spying by Israel);
* Yahya Skaf (a Lebanese citizen whom Hezbollah claims was arrested in Israel -- Israel denies);[39][40]
* Ali Farran[citation needed].

Nasrallah claimed that Israel had broken a previous deal to release these prisoners, and since diplomacy had failed, violence was the only remaining option.[39] Nasrallah declared: "No military operation will return the Israeli captured soldiers…The prisoners will not be returned except through one way: indirect negotiations and a trade of prisoners."[41]

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert described the seizure of the soldiers as an "act of war" by the sovereign country of Lebanon,[42][43] stating that "Lebanon will bear the consequences of its actions"[44] and promising a "very painful and far-reaching response."[45] Israel blamed the Lebanese government for the raid, as it was carried out from Lebanese territory and Hezbollah had two ministers serving in the Lebanese cabinet at that time.[46] In response, Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora denied any knowledge of the raid and stated that he did not condone it.[47][48] An emergency meeting of the Lebanese government reaffirmed this position.[49]

The Israel Defense Forces attacked targets within Lebanon with artillery and airstrikes hours before the Israeli Cabinet met to discuss a response. The Israeli aviation bombed several areas in Lebanon (bridges and roads, the Beyruth airport)[50], resulting in 44 civilian deaths.[51]

Later that same day (12 July 2006), the Cabinet decided to authorize the Prime Minister, the Defense Minister and their deputies to pursue the plan which they had proposed for action within Lebanon. The decision also emphasized Prime Minister Olmert's demand that the Israeli Defense Force avoid civilian casualties whenever possible.[52] Israel's chief of staff Dan Halutz said, "if the soldiers are not returned, we will turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years"[53] while the head of Israel's Northern Command Udi Adam said, "this affair is between Israel and the state of Lebanon. Where to attack? Once it is inside Lebanon, everything is legitimate -- not just southern Lebanon, not just the line of Hezbollah posts."[53] On July 12, 2006, the Israeli Cabinet promised that Israel would "respond aggressively and harshly to those who carried out, and are responsible for, today's action".[54] The Cabinet's communiqué stated, in part, that the "Lebanese Government [was] responsible for the action that originated on its soil."[54]

On July 16, the Israeli Cabinet released a communiqué explaining that, although Israel had engaged in military operations within Lebanon, its war was not against the Lebanese government. The communiqué stated: "Israel is not fighting Lebanon but the terrorist element there, led by Nasrallah and his cohorts, who have made Lebanon a hostage and created Syrian- and Iranian-sponsored terrorist enclaves of murder."[55]

When asked in August about the proportionality of the response, Prime Minister Olmert stated that the "war started not only by killing eight Israeli soldiers and abducting two but by shooting Katyusha and other rockets on the northern cities of Israel on that same morning. Indiscriminately." He added "no country in Europe would have responded in such a restrained manner as Israel did."[56]

There have been many engagements between the Palestinians and the Israelis wherein the capture of soldiers was the motivations for a prisoner exchange. Israel took the opportunity of this incidence to launch a disproportionate attack in retaliation. I have heard reports that the IDF was well prepared beforehand to launch such an attack and the motivations were not totally unpolitical since Olmert looked forward for a quick decisive victory to bolster his failing political status in Israel. The massive over-retaliation has been condemned throughout the world and the Israeli failure to complete what they projected has been a severe blow to the stature of the IDF. Civilian casualties on both sides is to be condemned but Israel had the capabilities to control them to a much higher degree than the inferior military weapons of Hesbollah. Of course, if the US or even Israel preferred more accurate targeting of its military they could have provided Hesbollah with more accurate weaponry and better targeting information of their military facilities but this is not in the normal military tradition. Aside from resorting to spitballs and slingshots it seems to me that Hisbollah used whatever it could get its hand on.

I've lived in Israel for almost 2 years and I don't hate the Israelis nor the Arabs. I've had friends on both sides and I feel the tragedies of the conflict from both ends. It hurts me to see good people operating in a misguided manner to make the situation horrifying. Aside from the orthodox religious people on both sides it seems to me that living together makes more sense than dying together. Religion generates impenetrable hatred and disdain that can only end in tragedy.

Israeli Policies Contributing to the Civilian Death Toll

In the vast majority of cases documented in this report, Israeli air strikes hit near or on civilian objects, killing numerous civilians in their homes or vehicles. While there were instances in which civilian deaths were “collateral damage” from legitimate attacks on military targets, during the vast majority of the deadly air strikes we investigated, we found no evidence of Hezbollah military presence, weaponry or any other military objective that would have justified the strike. Human Rights Watch visits to the graveyards in the villages found that the victims of these strikes were buried as civilians, and not honored as “fighters” or “martyrs” by Hezbollah or other militant groups, despite the pride that Hezbollah takes in these labels. Women and children account for a large majority of the victims of Israeli air strikes that we documented. Out of the 499 Lebanese civilian casualties of whom Human Rights Watch was able to confirm the age and gender, 302 were women or children.

This repeated failure to distinguish between civilians and combatants cannot be explained as mere mismanagement of the war or a collection of mistakes. Our case studies show that Israeli policy was primarily responsible for this deadly failure. Israel assumed that all Lebanese civilians had observed its warnings to evacuate villages south of the Litani River, and thus that anyone who remained was a combatant. Reflecting that assumption, it labeled any visible person, or movement of persons or vehicles south of the Litani River or in the Beka` Valley as a Hezbollah military operation which could be targeted. Similarly, it carried out widespread bombardment of southern Lebanon, including the massive use of cluster munitions prior to the expected ceasefire, in a manner that did not discriminate between military objectives and civilians.

Swindler's List topic

Do not give that list back to Hezbollah who wrote it.

Israel has shown great restraint in the last 60 years.

And the party of god is a disgrace to their deity.

....and Zionism is a disgrace for humanity.