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Do you value pain?

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claire-333
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13 Mar 2009, 4:49 pm

postpaleo wrote:
I slipped on the ice. It hurt.
It did not occur to me this thread might be about physical pain. I think most people could agree, physical pain has value in alerting us to something being physically wrong. Physical pain is often necessary. Maybe this is where twowhots perspective was from? I feel bad for people who experience non-stop cronic physical pain. Although it seems I have a strange pain tolerance. You story sounds like you may too.



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13 Mar 2009, 5:05 pm

Physical pain takes away all the worries of the world. If I'm in a lot of pain, I can't really think about anything else. Maybe some people create a pain in themselves so that they don't need to focus on real issues. You can divert the problem by focusing on an imaginary one. Also, if you invent a personal pain, whether it is physical or emotional, it is an unconscious way of being in control. After all, if it's all your own doing it can also be your own undoing.


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13 Mar 2009, 6:28 pm

claire333 wrote:
It did not occur to me this thread might be about physical pain. I think most people could agree, physical pain has value in alerting us to something being physically wrong.


I suspect this is the origin of the concept of metaphorical pain, it alerts us to damaging styles of behaviour in much the same way as physical pain. As with physical pain some of us learn slower than others :lol:


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13 Mar 2009, 6:45 pm

claire333 wrote:
postpaleo wrote:
I slipped on the ice. It hurt.
It did not occur to me this thread might be about physical pain. I think most people could agree, physical pain has value in alerting us to something being physically wrong. Physical pain is often necessary. Maybe this is where twowhots perspective was from? I feel bad for people who experience non-stop cronic physical pain. Although it seems I have a strange pain tolerance. You story sounds like you may too.

Physical pain rawks. Just messed up me ankle hiking and I'm in for an episode out of Notes from Underground
Quote:
"Well, even in toothache there is enjoyment," I answer. I had toothache for a whole month and I know there is. In that case, of course, people are not spiteful in silence, but moan; but they are not candid moans, they are malignant moans, and the malignancy is the whole point. The enjoyment of the sufferer finds expression in those moans; if he did not feel enjoyment in them he would not moan. It is a good example, gentlemen, and I will develop it. Those moans express in the first place all the aimlessness of your pain, which is so humiliating to your consciousness; the whole legal system of nature on which you spit disdainfully, of course, but from which you suffer all the same while she does not. They express the consciousness that you have no enemy to punish, but that you have pain; the consciousness that in spite of all possible Wagenheims you are in complete slavery to your teeth; that if someone wishes it, your teeth will leave off aching, and if he does not, they will go on aching another three months; and that finally if you are still contumacious and still protest, all that is left you for your own gratification is to thrash yourself or beat your wall with your fist as hard as you can, and absolutely nothing more.

(forgive my lack of seriousness, I tried it once and one of my eyeballs literally exploded out my head. terrible terrible stuff) But somewhat seriously physical pain even does not affect one uniformly. I have never found myself more than a little inconvenienced when I mess myself up out hiking. A physical pain can be galvanizing even, makes one feel stronger. But the more senseless and aimless pains of life, which lend no direction, and give you no enemy, no purpose, and lend no sense of order or balance cannot be similarly satisfying, and instead undermine ones sense of self, and one's relation to reality. Pain can affirm ones position in reality or rip the rug out underneath, and cannot be characterized by one or another without actively falsifying reality.


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claire-333
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13 Mar 2009, 8:47 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
I suspect this is the origin of the concept of metaphorical pain, it alerts us to damaging styles of behaviour in much the same way as physical pain. As with physical pain some of us learn slower than others :lol:
I think it may have something to do with the old addage of not being able to see the light without the dark. If a loved one does not cause one some pain from time to time, can one appreciate the pleasures as much? I am not sure they can.


twoshots wrote:
Quote:
"Well, even in toothache there is enjoyment," I answer. I had toothache for a whole month and I know there is. In that case, of course, people are not spiteful in silence, but moan; but they are not candid moans, they are malignant moans, and the malignancy is the whole point. The enjoyment of the sufferer finds expression in those moans; if he did not feel enjoyment in them he would not moan. It is a good example, gentlemen, and I will develop it. Those moans express in the first place all the aimlessness of your pain, which is so humiliating to your consciousness; the whole legal system of nature on which you spit disdainfully, of course, but from which you suffer all the same while she does not. They express the consciousness that you have no enemy to punish, but that you have pain; the consciousness that in spite of all possible Wagenheims you are in complete slavery to your teeth; that if someone wishes it, your teeth will leave off aching, and if he does not, they will go on aching another three months; and that finally if you are still contumacious and still protest, all that is left you for your own gratification is to thrash yourself or beat your wall with your fist as hard as you can, and absolutely nothing more.
This is funny. It sounds kind of like something Sand would say.
twoshots wrote:
(forgive my lack of seriousness, I tried it once and one of my eyeballs literally exploded out my head. terrible terrible stuff) But somewhat seriously physical pain even does not affect one uniformly. I have never found myself more than a little inconvenienced when I mess myself up out hiking. A physical pain can be galvanizing even, makes one feel stronger. But the more senseless and aimless pains of life, which lend no direction, and give you no enemy, no purpose, and lend no sense of order or balance cannot be similarly satisfying, and instead undermine ones sense of self, and one's relation to reality. Pain can affirm ones position in reality or rip the rug out underneath, and cannot be characterized by one or another without actively falsifying reality.
This is well stated and true. The pain of loosing a sense or limb, can cause one to become stronger or more self-determined. The pain of loosing a loved one can lead to a spiral of bitterness and self destrucition. I have seen both happen to others, but have been fortunate in these areas myself. Maybe I do not have any true idea of what real pain is anyway.



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14 Mar 2009, 12:09 am

twoshots wrote:
(forgive my lack of seriousness, I tried it once and one of my eyeballs literally exploded out my head. terrible terrible stuff)


Wrong eye ball. :wink: :lol:



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14 Mar 2009, 12:14 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
claire333 wrote:
It did not occur to me this thread might be about physical pain. I think most people could agree, physical pain has value in alerting us to something being physically wrong.


I suspect this is the origin of the concept of metaphorical pain, it alerts us to damaging styles of behaviour in much the same way as physical pain. As with physical pain some of us learn slower than others :lol:


Yeah, see I don't want to get into a type of moderating here at all. I was leery of using physical pain as a for example. So when you used the word metaphorical, that, to me, is another way of looking at it, value it or not.



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14 Mar 2009, 12:29 am

pain is a mechanism

humans are logical

we can circumvent certain mechanisms, by logic. for example, if i need to piss. i can feel that pinch. i still remain seated. i may be on the bus. i wont piss my pants or the bus, so i go against my mechanics, i control them, and hold back, because of logical reasoning.

pain is a signal, and with a concious attitude to it, thats all it is. i dunno how much can be GAINED from pain other than tolerance to more of it tho...



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14 Mar 2009, 1:43 am

ZEGH8578 wrote:
pain is a mechanism

humans are logical

we can circumvent certain mechanisms, by logic. for example, if i need to piss. i can feel that pinch. i still remain seated. i may be on the bus. i wont piss my pants or the bus, so i go against my mechanics, i control them, and hold back, because of logical reasoning.

pain is a signal, and with a concious attitude to it, thats all it is. i dunno how much can be GAINED from pain other than tolerance to more of it tho...

I disagree. We are not logical, we are emotional systemizers. We can hold back our peeing through our emotional drives, but I doubt that the decision not to pee is something purely logical. For one, motivations tend to often be from some emotional urging as logic does not create it's own premises. For example, on your bus, why NOT pee? I mean, very few people will notice, and the ones who do notice probably will not do anything or even impact your life at any point in time. If you are soon to arrive at wherever you live, then you can change pants when you get there. Not only that, but if you do not care about other people(a logical possibility) then why care at all? Just pee in your pants if it feels better.

In any case, I think there is pretty solid evidence that people fail to be perfectly rational.



ZEGH8578
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14 Mar 2009, 1:47 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
ZEGH8578 wrote:
pain is a mechanism

humans are logical

we can circumvent certain mechanisms, by logic. for example, if i need to piss. i can feel that pinch. i still remain seated. i may be on the bus. i wont piss my pants or the bus, so i go against my mechanics, i control them, and hold back, because of logical reasoning.

pain is a signal, and with a concious attitude to it, thats all it is. i dunno how much can be GAINED from pain other than tolerance to more of it tho...

I disagree. We are not logical, we are emotional systemizers. We can hold back our peeing through our emotional drives, because I doubt that the decision not to pee is something purely logical. For one, motivations tend to often be from some emotional urging as logic does not create it's own premises. For example, on your bus, why NOT pee? I mean, very few people will notice, and the ones who do notice probably will not do anything or even impact your life at any point in time. If you are soon to arrive at wherever you live, then you can change pants when you get there. Not only that, but if you do not care about other people(a logical possibility) then why care at all? Just pee in your pants if it feels better.

In any case, I think there is pretty solid evidence that people fail to be perfectly rational.


you broke down logic, and the meaning of the concept.

i aggree with your general breakdown but,
i can still stop myself from peeing - by using logic :]

emotionally i just wanna pee. i feel it, i want it out. but logically, i hold back, keep unsoiled pants, etc.

(if we keep breaking down reason/logic, we will discover that there is no such thing. it stems from abstract thinking, the ability to imagine, which is a survival tool.)

you guys are worse than me when it comes to breaking down specific words or concepts in a debate. i feel so at home here! :]



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14 Mar 2009, 2:00 am

Life is the value of pain especially with loss.


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Awesomelyglorious
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14 Mar 2009, 2:11 am

ZEGH8578 wrote:
you broke down logic, and the meaning of the concept.

Well, not really. I just do not think that logic has motivational force. It is just a mechanism for understanding ideas and creating frameworks.

Quote:
emotionally i just wanna pee. i feel it, i want it out. but logically, i hold back, keep unsoiled pants, etc.

I don't think that logic can hold back emotions. I side with Nietzsche on this one: "The will to overcome an emotion, is ultimately only the will of another, or of several other, emotions."

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(if we keep breaking down reason/logic, we will discover that there is no such thing. it stems from abstract thinking, the ability to imagine, which is a survival tool.)

Well, now, that is an argument I wasn't making at that moment in time. It is one thing to say that logic has no motivational force, and it is another to say that logic does not exist. It is certainly an argument one could make, and I think some have made arguments that what we call logic is not what we think it to be.

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you guys are worse than me when it comes to breaking down specific words or concepts in a debate. i feel so at home here! :]

Yeah.... I am terrible about it I think.



ZEGH8578
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14 Mar 2009, 2:16 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
ZEGH8578 wrote:
you broke down logic, and the meaning of the concept.

Well, not really. I just do not think that logic has motivational force. It is just a mechanism for understanding ideas and creating frameworks.

Quote:
emotionally i just wanna pee. i feel it, i want it out. but logically, i hold back, keep unsoiled pants, etc.

I don't think that logic can hold back emotions. I side with Nietzsche on this one: "The will to overcome an emotion, is ultimately only the will of another, or of several other, emotions."

Quote:
(if we keep breaking down reason/logic, we will discover that there is no such thing. it stems from abstract thinking, the ability to imagine, which is a survival tool.)

Well, now, that is an argument I wasn't making at that moment in time. It is one thing to say that logic has no motivational force, and it is another to say that logic does not exist. It is certainly an argument one could make, and I think some have made arguments that what we call logic is not what we think it to be.

Quote:
you guys are worse than me when it comes to breaking down specific words or concepts in a debate. i feel so at home here! :]

Yeah.... I am terrible about it I think.


i am aggreeing with you, but we seem to have a different, um, preference of words to use.
this happens when debating w some other aspie i know. we argue for hours, untill we discover that we aggreed the entire time, just using different nomenclature.

the whole point i was making was this:

humans can stop and observe pain, we should use that advantage, since we have it.
(did that even come through at all, in my original reply??)



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14 Mar 2009, 2:21 am

ZEGH8578 wrote:
the whole point i was making was this:

humans can stop and observe pain, we should use that advantage, since we have it.
(did that even come through at all, in my original reply??)

It was in the part I didn't care to respond to. :P



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14 Mar 2009, 2:24 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
ZEGH8578 wrote:
pain is a mechanism

humans are logical

we can circumvent certain mechanisms, by logic. for example, if i need to piss. i can feel that pinch. i still remain seated. i may be on the bus. i wont piss my pants or the bus, so i go against my mechanics, i control them, and hold back, because of logical reasoning.

pain is a signal, and with a concious attitude to it, thats all it is. i dunno how much can be GAINED from pain other than tolerance to more of it tho...

I disagree. We are not logical, we are emotional systemizers. We can hold back our peeing through our emotional drives, but I doubt that the decision not to pee is something purely logical. For one, motivations tend to often be from some emotional urging as logic does not create it's own premises. For example, on your bus, why NOT pee? I mean, very few people will notice, and the ones who do notice probably will not do anything or even impact your life at any point in time. If you are soon to arrive at wherever you live, then you can change pants when you get there. Not only that, but if you do not care about other people(a logical possibility) then why care at all? Just pee in your pants if it feels better.

In any case, I think there is pretty solid evidence that people fail to be perfectly rational.


I agree that logic does not dictate action and emotion is the fundamental engine of choice but logic does present consequences of action and emotion can thus choose amongst consequences. If you feel comfortable sitting in wet irritating pants on public transportation and are emotionally secure in the contempt of your fellow passengers then you might go ahead and pee but logic can only present possibilities.



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14 Mar 2009, 11:25 am

Sand wrote:
I agree that logic does not dictate action and emotion is the fundamental engine of choice but logic does present consequences of action and emotion can thus choose amongst consequences. If you feel comfortable sitting in wet irritating pants on public transportation and are emotionally secure in the contempt of your fellow passengers then you might go ahead and pee but logic can only present possibilities.

I can agree with this somewhat. Of course, the outcomes are somewhat distorted in our mind's eye due to our emotions, but still it would be hard to deny your claim unless one were to take the extreme stance that logical processing systems did not exist in the mind.