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How to peacefully disband The Illegimate State of Israel

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iamnotaparakeet
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20 Apr 2011, 10:53 am

John_Browning wrote:
xenon13 wrote:
Do like South Africa. Hold an election for the whole territory under Israeli rule and elect a new parliament that will change the basic law. End the racist regime.

South Africa was better off under the apartheid government. It has gone into a flaming power dive towards another stereotypical 3rd world African dump under the rule of the ANC.

Israelis wouldn't go for that because it would allow for polices that would allow for them to eventually be overrun by terrorists.


I really am wondering why people seem to think that any general abstracted meme can be applied to every specific situation. Israel should not allow it's government to fall into the hands of those who seek to obliterate Israel. Regardless of whether it seems "racist" or "apartheid" to anyone, it is just plain a stupid idea to hand over control of the only Jewish nation on Earth into the hands of Muslims, whether they would claim in their campaign to be moderate or not. It would be like hiring a wolf to be a shepherd.



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21 Apr 2011, 12:23 am

ruveyn wrote:
RedHanrahan wrote:
Like it or not we are stuck with the existence of 'Israel'

I think it is more appropriate to ask, 'how do we eliminate Zionist bigotry from their thinking and convince them to chill out with their neighbours?'



Convince the neighbors to stop the violent acts they do. Very simple.

ruveyn


Their neighbors are still fighting every war they have lost. Their neighbors lost conventional warfare attempts and have resorted to terrorism and propaganda. Their neighbors can not accept defeat and are reminded about that every day by their politicians and spiritual leaders. Their neighbors are THE bigots of the modern world.



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21 Apr 2011, 3:16 am

Nil_Nil wrote:

Their neighbors are still fighting every war they have lost. Their neighbors lost conventional warfare attempts and have resorted to terrorism and propaganda. Their neighbors can not accept defeat and are reminded about that every day by their politicians and spiritual leaders. Their neighbors are THE bigots of the modern world.


In that case, it is a fight to the death.

ruveyn



Inuyasha
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21 Apr 2011, 11:24 am

ruveyn wrote:
Nil_Nil wrote:

Their neighbors are still fighting every war they have lost. Their neighbors lost conventional warfare attempts and have resorted to terrorism and propaganda. Their neighbors can not accept defeat and are reminded about that every day by their politicians and spiritual leaders. Their neighbors are THE bigots of the modern world.


In that case, it is a fight to the death.

ruveyn


Agreed, if the Arabs and Palestinians decided to lay down their arms there would be peace. If the Israelis decided to lay down their arms we would be looking at a genocide.



iamnotaparakeet
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21 Apr 2011, 11:37 am

Inuyasha wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Nil_Nil wrote:

Their neighbors are still fighting every war they have lost. Their neighbors lost conventional warfare attempts and have resorted to terrorism and propaganda. Their neighbors can not accept defeat and are reminded about that every day by their politicians and spiritual leaders. Their neighbors are THE bigots of the modern world.


In that case, it is a fight to the death.

ruveyn


Agreed, if the Arabs and Palestinians decided to lay down their arms there would be peace. If the Israelis decided to lay down their arms we would be looking at a genocide.


If the Iranians are not policed properly we may also be watching a genocide. For as much as it may be bad PR, the cost of PR versus the cost of millions of human lives, PR ought to be secondary.



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21 Apr 2011, 1:04 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Nil_Nil wrote:

Their neighbors are still fighting every war they have lost. Their neighbors lost conventional warfare attempts and have resorted to terrorism and propaganda. Their neighbors can not accept defeat and are reminded about that every day by their politicians and spiritual leaders. Their neighbors are THE bigots of the modern world.


In that case, it is a fight to the death.

ruveyn


Agreed, if the Arabs and Palestinians decided to lay down their arms there would be peace. If the Israelis decided to lay down their arms we would be looking at a genocide.


If the Iranians are not policed properly we may also be watching a genocide. For as much as it may be bad PR, the cost of PR versus the cost of millions of human lives, PR ought to be secondary.


In the case of Iran though, there is a huge disconnect between the Iranian people and their leaders. I know the common people are more friendly toward the US than that nutjob president who stole the last election over there, or the Mullahs who really run the country. The same attitude maybe extended to Israel.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



iamnotaparakeet
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21 Apr 2011, 1:16 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Nil_Nil wrote:

Their neighbors are still fighting every war they have lost. Their neighbors lost conventional warfare attempts and have resorted to terrorism and propaganda. Their neighbors can not accept defeat and are reminded about that every day by their politicians and spiritual leaders. Their neighbors are THE bigots of the modern world.


In that case, it is a fight to the death.

ruveyn


Agreed, if the Arabs and Palestinians decided to lay down their arms there would be peace. If the Israelis decided to lay down their arms we would be looking at a genocide.


If the Iranians are not policed properly we may also be watching a genocide. For as much as it may be bad PR, the cost of PR versus the cost of millions of human lives, PR ought to be secondary.


In the case of Iran though, there is a huge disconnect between the Iranian people and their leaders. I know the common people are more friendly toward the US than that nutjob president who stole the last election over there, or the Mullahs who really run the country. The same attitude maybe extended to Israel.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


The military actions of a nation are not controlled by the attitudes of its population but by the leaders of the nation. The same attitude can be considered in regard to any nation, however for Israel they just want to exist whereas the leaders of the nations surrounding them generally seem to want the diametric opposite.



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21 Apr 2011, 1:27 pm

To me, The creation of Israel is just like the creation of Pakistan. I find the idea of Zionism Medieval like the creation of Pakistan.



iamnotaparakeet
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21 Apr 2011, 1:32 pm

Laconvivencia wrote:
To me, The creation of Israel is just like the creation of Pakistan. I find the idea of Zionism Medieval like the creation of Pakistan.


Ah, and the word Medieval is suppose to convey a pejorative connotation since everything Medieval is evil just by default of being Medieval. The rebirth of the nation of Israel is far from the connotations attempted to be associated, however those same connotations that were just attempted would seem quite fitting to the attitudes of the Hamas militia towards Israel.



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21 Apr 2011, 1:35 pm

Chronos wrote:
I would like to point out a few things.

4. No matter your view on Israel and their actions, the most optimal path for the Palestinians would actually be to completely submit to Israel and petition for their territories to become part of it. It's not going to happen, but that would probably result in the highest possible standard of living for them.


Actually, most (or at least a plurality) of Palestinians support a one-state solution, it's just that many Jewish Israelis fear that integrating the Palestinians as voting citizens would dilute the Jewish character of the Israeli state (which is why most Israelis oppose a one-state solution).


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21 Apr 2011, 1:35 pm

Laconvivencia wrote:
To me, The creation of Israel is just like the creation of Pakistan. I find the idea of Zionism Medieval like the creation of Pakistan.


What is Medieval about it? A Jewish ethnic homeland where a group that was a persecuted minority desired to branch out on their own and found a new homeland away from that persecution..moving away from religious discrimination and racial discrimination in Europe.....actually, Zionism is pretty revolutionary and modern, not medieval.



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21 Apr 2011, 1:38 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Chronos wrote:
I would like to point out a few things.

4. No matter your view on Israel and their actions, the most optimal path for the Palestinians would actually be to completely submit to Israel and petition for their territories to become part of it. It's not going to happen, but that would probably result in the highest possible standard of living for them.


Actually, most (or at least a plurality) of Palestinians support a one-state solution, it's just that many Jewish Israelis fear that integrating the Palestinians as voting citizens would dilute the Jewish character of the Israeli state (which is why most Israelis oppose a one-state solution).


Where do you get the idea that a majority of the palestinians would welcome integration? what are you basing that off of? A " One state" solution is not desirable...Jews know all too well what will happen...the birthrate of Arabs will swallow the very essence and purpose of Israel..as a state for national self determination of Jews and in the long term it will mean a gradual return to Jewish minority status and loss of political power..This would not be another lebanon..this would like Iraq and the Jews would be the Kurds in a perpetual place of being a discriminated minority. Its not going to happen.



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21 Apr 2011, 1:39 pm

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
Laconvivencia wrote:
To me, The creation of Israel is just like the creation of Pakistan. I find the idea of Zionism Medieval like the creation of Pakistan.


What is Medieval about it? A Jewish ethnic homeland where a group that was a persecuted minority desired to branch out on their own and found a new homeland away from that persecution..moving away from religious discrimination and racial discrimination in Europe.....actually, Zionism is pretty revolutionary and modern, not medieval.


I suppose there is an argument to make, as in the Medieval era Jerusalem was a multi-faith, multiethnic city (before Crusaders ramsacked it). But, in essence, the ethnic and religious nationalism/isolationism that motivated zionism is quite escapist and outdated. Never mind that Jews are probably safer outside of Israel than in it.


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JeremyNJ1984
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21 Apr 2011, 1:48 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
Laconvivencia wrote:
To me, The creation of Israel is just like the creation of Pakistan. I find the idea of Zionism Medieval like the creation of Pakistan.


What is Medieval about it? A Jewish ethnic homeland where a group that was a persecuted minority desired to branch out on their own and found a new homeland away from that persecution..moving away from religious discrimination and racial discrimination in Europe.....actually, Zionism is pretty revolutionary and modern, not medieval.


I suppose there is an argument to make, as in the Medieval era Jerusalem was a multi-faith, multiethnic city (before Crusaders ramsacked it). But, in essence, the ethnic and religious nationalism/isolationism that motivated zionism is quite escapist and outdated. Never mind that Jews are probably safer outside of Israel than in it.



Jerusalem today is a multi-faith, multi-ethnic city today..ever been there? I go there twice a year..very open...You want to see real medievalism, i suggest you focus your attention on that respect toward countries surrounding Israel where REAL religious laws are in place. As for Zionism being " escapist and outdated"...well thats nice and dandy to say, but Zionism grew out of the 1880s when Russian Jews were restricted to the Pale, Jews were seen in a negative light as bankers, christ killers, etc...Escaping from your problems and finding a way out is not bad..its very courageous. To even suggest that Jews are probably safer outside Israel than in it is utterly ridicoulous. Yeah..it must be less safe in Israel than to have been or be a minority in Europe or in real Medieval law type countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia...its better for jews to just shutup and be quiet and be second class citizens than exert any political rights and ideas. Its not outdated...its actually proper and correct. I am a proud Zionist, as I support a Jewish homeland. BTW, those founders of Zionism were Socialists and communists..might want to look into that.



ruveyn
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21 Apr 2011, 1:57 pm

Laconvivencia wrote:
To me, The creation of Israel is just like the creation of Pakistan. I find the idea of Zionism Medieval like the creation of Pakistan.


Jews were marginalized and made aliens in Europe. A place of their own makes perfectly good sense.

ruveyn



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21 Apr 2011, 2:03 pm

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
JeremyNJ1984 wrote:
Laconvivencia wrote:
To me, The creation of Israel is just like the creation of Pakistan. I find the idea of Zionism Medieval like the creation of Pakistan.


What is Medieval about it? A Jewish ethnic homeland where a group that was a persecuted minority desired to branch out on their own and found a new homeland away from that persecution..moving away from religious discrimination and racial discrimination in Europe.....actually, Zionism is pretty revolutionary and modern, not medieval.


I suppose there is an argument to make, as in the Medieval era Jerusalem was a multi-faith, multiethnic city (before Crusaders ramsacked it). But, in essence, the ethnic and religious nationalism/isolationism that motivated zionism is quite escapist and outdated. Never mind that Jews are probably safer outside of Israel than in it.



Jerusalem today is a multi-faith, multi-ethnic city today..ever been there? I go there twice a year..very open...You want to see real medievalism, i suggest you focus your attention on that respect toward countries surrounding Israel where REAL religious laws are in place. As for Zionism being " escapist and outdated"...well thats nice and dandy to say, but Zionism grew out of the 1880s when Russian Jews were restricted to the Pale, Jews were seen in a negative light as bankers, christ killers, etc...Escaping from your problems and finding a way out is not bad..its very courageous. To even suggest that Jews are probably safer outside Israel than in it is utterly ridicoulous. Yeah..it must be less safe in Israel than to have been or be a minority in Europe or in real Medieval law type countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia...its better for jews to just shutup and be quiet and be second class citizens than exert any political rights and ideas. Its not outdated...its actually proper and correct. I am a proud Zionist, as I support a Jewish homeland. BTW, those founders of Zionism were Socialists and communists..might want to look into that.


That last point you made of the original Zionists being communists and socialists is something the American far right conveniently ignores.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer