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Male circumcision
Wrong 71%  71%  [ 40 ]
Right 29%  29%  [ 16 ]
Total votes : 56

lilypadfad
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27 Oct 2011, 1:37 pm

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Reference to a properly constructed poll and sampling please.

ruveyn


Ok , I didn't look that hard hehe. I found that tidbit on a jewish-run anti-circumcision site, it's repeated quite frequently on other jewish-run anti-circumcision websites. I found this community from Israel of all places http://www.kahal.org/ who leave their sons intact. I came across a book called "Questioning circumcision: A Jewish perspective". It looks like a sizeable minority to me, not just one or two lone nutters.

Here's something else I found on one of those sites http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/

Quote:
Traditions

Judaism is a fluid religion that has been subject to change as it meets challenges and reaches new and better understandings. This is shown with the advent of non-traditional ceremonies, like Bat Mitzvah, and other significant changes to advance the roles of females including the ordination of women rabbis, chazzans and shamases.

Jews say that circumcision is tradition. The following are also "traditions" and they are among the actions punishable by death according to the Torah:

Cheating on your husband, (Lev. 20:10).
Fornicating - if you’re female (Deut 22:21).
Homosexuality (Lev. 20:13).
Blasphemy (Lev. 24:16)
Insulting one’s parents (Exod. 21:17)
Disobeying one’s parents (Deut 21:18-21

Obviously, we no longer apply capitol punishment for committing the above mentioned acts because we are no longer a primitive society and we have come to believe in human rights. Other practices sanctioned by the Torah that we no longer do because we are educated and enlightened are:

Slavery (Exod 21:1-11) (Deut. 15:12-18 )
Animal and Human Sacrifices (Lev. 4:3, 4:23, 4:32, 5:7, 5:15; Judges 11:20, 11:33)
Divorce for men only (Deut 24:1)
Female subservience to men including obedience to every order and no right to refuse sex, (Genesis 3:16).


Relevant perhaps? People here have already stated that freedom of religion does not allow you to harm others or infringe on another's rights. While harm is up for debate, performing an irreversible procedure like that on a boy who cannot consent is most definitely an infringement of his rights.


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ruveyn
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27 Oct 2011, 1:47 pm

lilypadfad wrote:

Relevant perhaps? People here have already stated that freedom of religion does not allow you to harm others or infringe on another's rights. While harm is up for debate, performing an irreversible procedure like that on a boy who cannot consent is most definitely an infringement of his rights.


Since when is an action (taken when it is easiest and safest to do) infringing on rights? Jews have been sparing their male children the danger of cancer of the glans penis and the curse of smegma for three thousand years. Some infringement of rights that is.

ruveyn



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27 Oct 2011, 2:01 pm

ruveyn wrote:
lilypadfad wrote:

Relevant perhaps? People here have already stated that freedom of religion does not allow you to harm others or infringe on another's rights. While harm is up for debate, performing an irreversible procedure like that on a boy who cannot consent is most definitely an infringement of his rights.


Since when is an action (taken when it is easiest and safest to do) infringing on rights? Jews have been sparing their male children the danger of cancer of the glans penis and the curse of smegma for three thousand years. Some infringement of rights that is.

ruveyn

It's been repeatedly pointed out that this is incorrect. Circumcision does not prevent penile cancer and smegma is not an issue when proper personal hygiene is maintained.
This is an action that takes away a person's choice from a mostly optional (bar medical needs) and irreversible procedure.


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lilypadfad
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27 Oct 2011, 2:07 pm

Ugh here we go again.
- Smegma is not a problem for those with proper hygiene.
- Penile cancer is incredibly rare, even rarer among boys under 18 no? Not to mention the evidence for the reduction is risk is questionable at best.
- Later life circumcisions are RELATIVELY less safe and less easy. But all in all it's still a very safe procedure, certainly much safer than other cosmetic procedures, not a good reason to do it against the kids will.
- Irreversibly chopping off a functional body part for anything other than correcting a serious dysfunction of the penis should always ALWAYS be the choice of the owner of said penis and maybe not even then.


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27 Oct 2011, 2:47 pm

Lecks wrote:
Joker wrote:
Lecks wrote:
Joker, I'm going to ask that you stop invoking Godwin's Law, AspieRogue is adressing Ruveyn's comments by being facetiously provocative. Your oversensitivity isn't helping the situation.


AspieRouge is being facetiously provocative by saying Mr. k*e :roll:

Yes, your confusion is understandable. Now you know.

ruveyn wrote:
And both legally protected.

ruveyn

The religion I just joined dictates I must lop off the hands of my enemies and wear a necklace of their fingernails around my neck. It's good to know I can practice my religion under legal protection in the USA.


My half sister is a Jew we have the same father but not the same mother so it's ok to use racial slurs?



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27 Oct 2011, 3:25 pm

Joker wrote:
My half sister is a Jew we have the same father but not the same mother so it's ok to use racial slurs?

It's not for me or you to say whether it's ok. I saw no malicious intent in the statement and frankly it's none of our concern even if there was. It's between Aspierogue and ruveyn, I stepped in because you interjected with some unfounded statements.


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27 Oct 2011, 3:31 pm

Lecks wrote:
Joker wrote:
My half sister is a Jew we have the same father but not the same mother so it's ok to use racial slurs?


It's not for me or you to say whether it's ok. I saw no malicious intent in the statement and frankly it's none of our concern even if there was. It's between Aspierogue and ruveyn, I stepped in because you interjected with some unfounded statements.


The k*e comment made me upset it would have upset you to if your half sister was a Jew so I gave a unfounded statement for his unfounded statement.



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27 Oct 2011, 3:34 pm

Joker wrote:
The k*e comment made me upset it would have upset you to if your half sister was a Jew so I gave a unfounded statement for his unfounded statement.

Two unfounded statements don't make a right. ;)


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27 Oct 2011, 3:35 pm

Wtf? So now anti-circumcision = antisemitic?



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27 Oct 2011, 3:39 pm

Lecks wrote:
Joker wrote:
The k*e comment made me upset it would have upset you to if your half sister was a Jew so I gave a unfounded statement for his unfounded statement.


Two unfounded statements don't make a right. ;)


True but I don't care :lol:



lilypadfad
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27 Oct 2011, 5:47 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLGcqPE7xu0[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jI3oa4Mx9hs[/youtube]

Nice unbiased videos here (ahaha kidding)


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27 Oct 2011, 7:04 pm

Even if they did make laws regulating circumcision, they'll likely still allow it for religious or medical reasons, like they did in South Africa. So, Jews and Muslims would still be able to have their sons circumcised.



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27 Oct 2011, 7:15 pm

Lecks wrote:
It's been repeatedly pointed out that this is incorrect. Circumcision does not prevent penile cancer and smegma is not an issue when proper personal hygiene is maintained.

Penile cancer occurs less frequently in those circumcised than not. So does HIV. An circumcision is sure prevention of the Curse of Smegma

ruveyn



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27 Oct 2011, 7:28 pm

You should cut your hands, it will reduce you the work that is to wash them.

@THE CURSE OF SMEGMA. I am uncircumcised. Smegma is not a big deal at all, it is just something you need to wash during shower time just like you need to wash your feet. Unnecessary detail: It gives you pleasure to wash it even.

Since this topic is screaming to me that I shall give my opinion here it is:
- The supposed lesser infection rates are meaningless in comparison to the improvement in rates for using a condom.
- Pinile cancer rate studies are not convincing.
- Either way no rate found in regards to circumcision is relevant at all.

I won't deny that maybe 5000 years ago , it made a different, but in 2011, we have condoms and they are much better - Compare a 5% relative improvement to a 97% protection rate. The study ruveyn posted the other day was clear enough: There are not enough health reasons to promote widespread circumcision.

Now, about whether babies getting their penises cut is evil or wrong. It is actually true that there are tons and tons of people out there that went through it and they don't seem to be crazy because of it.

The claims about the uncircumcised penis giving more pleasure to the partner or the penis' owner are impossible to test as well.

So, what I must say here is that , for the life of god I cannot find any good scientific reason for or against circumcision. My common sense though tells me that it is probably not a good idea to put a knife close to my penis unless it was really, really necessary. But since science hardly has a say in regards to what is better or not, what parents do or don't with their babies' penises is their problem though. I for sure wouldn't do that, there is no need for that and in here the culture is not to circumcise them, but if you'd like to do that to your kid, go ahead.

Also, and to derail the topic, USamericans have to admit that the reason they are a majority of circumcised is not because of out of respect to semitic tradition nor to prevent penile cancer. But because US protestants during the 18-th (or 17-th? I am not sure) century were very scared of the idea of kids masturbating and thought that circumcision would be an effective counter-measure.


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27 Oct 2011, 8:18 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zekiZYSVdeQ[/youtube]

Note that there is a woman named B.J. Smegma in the video.



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29 Oct 2011, 9:29 am

Vexcalibur wrote:

I won't deny that maybe 5000 years ago , it made a different, but in 2011, we have condoms and they are much better - Compare a 5% relative improvement to a 97% protection rate. The study ruveyn posted the other day was clear enough: There are not enough health reasons to promote widespread circumcision.



You are quite right. Neo-natal circumcision is for the Jews. Not for you Gentiles.

You Gentiles can go around with appendages that look like the ones on dogs and horses. Jews will have tools that can only be human.

ruveyn