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Does anyone else agree with feminism?

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AspieRogue

29 Feb 2012, 2:20 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
J05ua wrote:
Feminism is stupid. Equality is not.



A-Men!

Besides, feminism is not truly about equality. It's about women's self-interest.


AFAIC feminists take themselves waaaaaaaaaaay too seriously and need to learn the fine art of self-deprecation.

uhhhh no. feminism is about equality. it originated because women did not HAVE equality, therefore it the name reflects that. if you think feminism is about anything else, then you are probably not fully educated about it.




The original objective of the feminist movement here in the USofA was for women to gain their independence from men. First, they sought the right to vote, then a few decades later(the 60s and onward) they sought the right to work outside of the home in any profession of their choice(along with being able to pursue any academic field since there was a time when certain fields were restricted to men)along with the right to have an abortion......Now the only real issue among most american women is the *pay gap*. I'd say that as far as women's right go here in my country, most of the major battles have already been won and there are just a few issues left that women are concerned about.

Most PEOPLE do not actually believe in equality, and women of course, are people. Seems like each woman who identifies herself as a feminist has her own idea about what feminism is all about. So I think we can say that 21st century feminism is not a unified, consistent ideology. It is a fragmented array of competing factions. Unfortunately, many feminists I meet IRL have issues with men or somehow feel threatened by men.



donnie_darko
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29 Feb 2012, 2:25 pm

Another thing too is sometimes I think feminists get 'rights' and 'responsibilities' confused. Voting for example is a right, but it's also a responsibility. I don't vote, I think women should have the right to vote, but I see voting as equally being a responsibility/pain in the ass. In Australia you're forced to vote.

One of the feminist fights today is the right for women to serve in the army, I could guarantee you if we had a draft they wouldn't view that as a right they are denied, but as a responsibility they have the privilege of being excused from.

There's two sides to everything, voting and serving in the armed forces could either be seen as a right denied to women or a responsibility/duty women had the privilege of being excused from.



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29 Feb 2012, 3:28 pm

It's always interesting when anti-feminist men start talking about what women want, what women will do, and what feminism is.



AspieRogue

29 Feb 2012, 4:00 pm

LKL wrote:
It's always interesting when anti-feminist men start talking about what women want, what women will do, and what feminism is.



I agree. How dare any MALE criticize feminism! :x






It's worth noting that whenever someone expresses a cynical view of feminism, or the fact that women are selfish self-interested humans JUST like men are, they are excoriated by feminists who desperately cling to their idealistic worldview.



Last edited by AspieRogue on 29 Feb 2012, 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Vigilans
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29 Feb 2012, 4:02 pm

LKL wrote:
It's always interesting when anti-feminist men start talking about what women want, what women will do, and what feminism is.


Excuse me, miss, there are men talking here ;)


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29 Feb 2012, 4:32 pm

EXPECIALLY wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
EXPECIALLY wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
J05ua wrote:
Feminism is stupid. Equality is not.



A-Men!

Besides, feminism is not truly about equality. It's about women's self-interest.


AFAIC feminists take themselves waaaaaaaaaaay too seriously and need to learn the fine art of self-deprecation.


I wish it weren't it this way but I think you're right, ALTHOUGH, thee are new branches of feminism that try to get away from this kind of thinking.

I think feminism went horribly wrong and did become very much about a woman's self interest along with trying to be equal and superior at the same time. I do think it started out with good intentions.

Some feminists today (3rd wave feminists) are really trying to break away from the feminists who have made the movement such a hot mess. It's worth looking into if you're interested. I'm not interested, not because I disagree with it, I just find it kind of boring.

just because some extremely radical branches focus on putting women first does not mean the entire movement is flawed. the majority of feminists do not put women above men.


But since they're the most vocal and were probably the most dominant at one time, it means the way most people think about feminism will be affected by those women. I've heard that other feminists don't even like the radical feminists. I don't blame them but I don't understand blaming anyone who has this view of feminism because of the radicals.

I only found about Third Wave feminism a few years ago. I'm not really "into it" just because it's not my thing but I think it makes a lot more sense than previous branches of feminism. If I had a stronger sense of gender identity I probably would be into it. I don't consider myself to be anywhere on the Trans spectrum but I really don't identify with women.

i think you're listening to the wrong people - i have never come across a radical feminist who proposed that women should have more power or rights than men, nor have i personally ever seen any such literature, websites or ideologies (except on wikipedia for example, where all segments are defined). perhaps you are either digging or you are listening to anti-feminist statements, because i have been a feminist my entire life yet have not come across what you propose.

i think you're creating an artificial problem.


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29 Feb 2012, 4:34 pm

donnie_darko wrote:
It's been my experience that most 'self-described' feminists tend to have a chip on their shoulder and a no-nonsense, nun-like attitude about certain things, like calling women 'dude' or saying 'you guys' when some of the 'guys' are actually girls (seriously, who cares? I call everyone dude lol. girls call other girls dude these days). However, if feminism is defined by the dictionary, as simply being equality, I would consider myself a feminist, even though I don't really like the word (what's someone who's not racist, an 'Africanist'?)

Added: A good deal of 'self-described' feminists are lesbian or bisexual too, which of course isn't a problem, just a pattern I learn and I think part of the reason is because women who are sexually attracted to men might feel less compelled to resent them? Plus obviously lesbian and bi girls may have a higher opinion of women in general because they are sexually attracted to them.

you're ascribing stereotypical yet statistically inaccurate behaviours and tendencies to feminists.


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29 Feb 2012, 4:39 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
EXPECIALLY wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
EXPECIALLY wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
J05ua wrote:
Feminism is stupid. Equality is not.



A-Men!

Besides, feminism is not truly about equality. It's about women's self-interest.


AFAIC feminists take themselves waaaaaaaaaaay too seriously and need to learn the fine art of self-deprecation.


I wish it weren't it this way but I think you're right, ALTHOUGH, thee are new branches of feminism that try to get away from this kind of thinking.

I think feminism went horribly wrong and did become very much about a woman's self interest along with trying to be equal and superior at the same time. I do think it started out with good intentions.

Some feminists today (3rd wave feminists) are really trying to break away from the feminists who have made the movement such a hot mess. It's worth looking into if you're interested. I'm not interested, not because I disagree with it, I just find it kind of boring.

just because some extremely radical branches focus on putting women first does not mean the entire movement is flawed. the majority of feminists do not put women above men.


But since they're the most vocal and were probably the most dominant at one time, it means the way most people think about feminism will be affected by those women. I've heard that other feminists don't even like the radical feminists. I don't blame them but I don't understand blaming anyone who has this view of feminism because of the radicals.

I only found about Third Wave feminism a few years ago. I'm not really "into it" just because it's not my thing but I think it makes a lot more sense than previous branches of feminism. If I had a stronger sense of gender identity I probably would be into it. I don't consider myself to be anywhere on the Trans spectrum but I really don't identify with women.

i think you're listening to the wrong people - i have never come across a radical feminist who proposed that women should have more power or rights than men, nor have i personally ever seen any such literature, websites or ideologies (except on wikipedia for example, where all segments are defined). perhaps you are either digging or you are listening to anti-feminist statements, because i have been a feminist my entire life yet have not come across what you propose.

i think you're creating an artificial problem.


I met one woman who said the number of men should be decreased to 15% of the population and that men are inherently flawed and unnecessary in a modern society where artificial insemination exists. "Males are a vulgarization of life that exists naturally as female, a once necessary evil now made obsolete by technology". I wish I was joking


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29 Feb 2012, 4:40 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
J05ua wrote:
Feminism is stupid. Equality is not.



A-Men!

Besides, feminism is not truly about equality. It's about women's self-interest.


AFAIC feminists take themselves waaaaaaaaaaay too seriously and need to learn the fine art of self-deprecation.

uhhhh no. feminism is about equality. it originated because women did not HAVE equality, therefore it the name reflects that. if you think feminism is about anything else, then you are probably not fully educated about it.




The original objective of the feminist movement here in the USofA was for women to gain their independence from men. First, they sought the right to vote, then a few decades later(the 60s and onward) they sought the right to work outside of the home in any profession of their choice(along with being able to pursue any academic field since there was a time when certain fields were restricted to men)along with the right to have an abortion......Now the only real issue among most american women is the *pay gap*. I'd say that as far as women's right go here in my country, most of the major battles have already been won and there are just a few issues left that women are concerned about.

Most PEOPLE do not actually believe in equality, and women of course, are people. Seems like each woman who identifies herself as a feminist has her own idea about what feminism is all about. So I think we can say that 21st century feminism is not a unified, consistent ideology. It is a fragmented array of competing factions. Unfortunately, many feminists I meet IRL have issues with men or somehow feel threatened by men.

feminism is based on the idea of equality, and we do not have any reason to believe that modern proponents want it any other way. your personal assumptions about humankind have nothing to do with the reality of the movement.

also, like i said to donnie_darko: you're ascribing stereotypical yet statistically inaccurate behaviours and tendencies to feminists.


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hyperlexian
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29 Feb 2012, 4:41 pm

Vigilans wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
EXPECIALLY wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
EXPECIALLY wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
J05ua wrote:
Feminism is stupid. Equality is not.



A-Men!

Besides, feminism is not truly about equality. It's about women's self-interest.


AFAIC feminists take themselves waaaaaaaaaaay too seriously and need to learn the fine art of self-deprecation.


I wish it weren't it this way but I think you're right, ALTHOUGH, thee are new branches of feminism that try to get away from this kind of thinking.

I think feminism went horribly wrong and did become very much about a woman's self interest along with trying to be equal and superior at the same time. I do think it started out with good intentions.

Some feminists today (3rd wave feminists) are really trying to break away from the feminists who have made the movement such a hot mess. It's worth looking into if you're interested. I'm not interested, not because I disagree with it, I just find it kind of boring.

just because some extremely radical branches focus on putting women first does not mean the entire movement is flawed. the majority of feminists do not put women above men.


But since they're the most vocal and were probably the most dominant at one time, it means the way most people think about feminism will be affected by those women. I've heard that other feminists don't even like the radical feminists. I don't blame them but I don't understand blaming anyone who has this view of feminism because of the radicals.

I only found about Third Wave feminism a few years ago. I'm not really "into it" just because it's not my thing but I think it makes a lot more sense than previous branches of feminism. If I had a stronger sense of gender identity I probably would be into it. I don't consider myself to be anywhere on the Trans spectrum but I really don't identify with women.

i think you're listening to the wrong people - i have never come across a radical feminist who proposed that women should have more power or rights than men, nor have i personally ever seen any such literature, websites or ideologies (except on wikipedia for example, where all segments are defined). perhaps you are either digging or you are listening to anti-feminist statements, because i have been a feminist my entire life yet have not come across what you propose.

i think you're creating an artificial problem.


I met one woman who said the number of men should be decreased to 15% of the population and that men are inherently flawed and unnecessary in a modern society where artificial insemination exists. "Males are a vulgarization of life that exists naturally as female, a once necessary evil now made obsolete by technology". I wish I was joking

wow, that is horrible.

this is a good example. you met one radical feminist once. that is a sharp contrast to the hudreds of moderate feminists you have probably known in your life. somehow people think that the one radical defines the entire movement.


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29 Feb 2012, 4:47 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
I met one woman who said the number of men should be decreased to 15% of the population and that men are inherently flawed and unnecessary in a modern society where artificial insemination exists. "Males are a vulgarization of life that exists naturally as female, a once necessary evil now made obsolete by technology". I wish I was joking

wow, that is horrible.

this is a good example. you met one radical feminist once. that is a sharp contrast to the hudreds of moderate feminists you have probably known in your life. somehow people think that the one radical defines the entire movement.


Of course not, but it is the "argument of convenience" that many would go for simply because its one woman who claims to be a feminist stating it. I support complete equality as do actual feminists and most reasonable human beings, and not insane radicals like the one I met; who are in many ways the female analogue of the male radicals who produce anti-feminist talking points as evidenced even in this own thread


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29 Feb 2012, 4:48 pm

Vigilans wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
I met one woman who said the number of men should be decreased to 15% of the population and that men are inherently flawed and unnecessary in a modern society where artificial insemination exists. "Males are a vulgarization of life that exists naturally as female, a once necessary evil now made obsolete by technology". I wish I was joking

wow, that is horrible.

this is a good example. you met one radical feminist once. that is a sharp contrast to the hudreds of moderate feminists you have probably known in your life. somehow people think that the one radical defines the entire movement.


Of course not, but it is the "argument of convenience" that many would go for simply because its one woman who claims to be a feminist stating it. I support complete equality as do actual feminists and most reasonable human beings, and not insane radicals like the one I met; who are in many ways the female analogue of the male radicals who produce anti-feminist talking points as evidenced even in this own thread

yes, exactly!! !! ! i was just using your story as a springboard


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29 Feb 2012, 5:55 pm

Vigilans wrote:
I met one woman who said the number of men should be decreased to 15% of the population and that men are inherently flawed and unnecessary in a modern society where artificial insemination exists. "Males are a vulgarization of life that exists naturally as female, a once necessary evil now made obsolete by technology". I wish I was joking


As a man, I'd love to live in a society with 85% women :) What's not to like?



AspieRogue

29 Feb 2012, 6:00 pm

hyperlexian:

Is there an official (centralized)organization of feminists that decides what feminism is and isn't? If not, who decides and how do feminists as a group come to a consensus? From what I see there is no consensus on the definition of a feminist.



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29 Feb 2012, 6:42 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
hyperlexian:

Is there an official (centralized)organization of feminists that decides what feminism is and isn't? If not, who decides and how do feminists as a group come to a consensus? From what I see there is no consensus on the definition of a feminist.

what is your point, exactly?


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29 Feb 2012, 7:43 pm

hyperlexian wrote:

this is a good example. you met one radical feminist once. that is a sharp contrast to the hudreds of moderate feminists you have probably known in your life. somehow people think that the one radical defines the entire movement.


He's met more than one radical feminist, he's met me, as well. He doesn't have any problem with me, as far as I'm aware.

I don't like how 'radical feminist' has become synonymous with 'insane misandry', rather than, um, a feminist who believe in the necessity of revolution. There isn't the huge gap between real rad fems and moderate feminists that people imagine exists.


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