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Feminist preoccupation with power

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hyperlexian
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09 Apr 2012, 1:03 pm

Ragtime wrote:
I'll add that, while no analogy is 100%, there is a lot of overlap between the two issues I brought up. There is a good way to practice feminism. But it is mostly practiced badly and damagingly to society. I mean, what is the point of a gender war anyway? That's like a comic book theme.

what gender war?


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09 Apr 2012, 1:05 pm

Ha Gender Way yeah thats what feminism is about to start a gender war :lol:



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09 Apr 2012, 2:15 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
TM, ultimately no researcher (either economist or sociologist) can fully explain the gender pay gap without resorting to assumptions, estimates, anecdotes, or generalisations. as i quoted above, even your economist conceded the limitations in the research.


Hence why it should be completely disregarded unless it includes enough variables to conclusively prove that the cause of the pay gap is based on gender discrimination. If its primarily based on other factors, such as women on average working less, picking professions that pay less, taking time out during their most productive years to have children, women voluntarily staying home to take care of the home or other issues not related to employer gender discrimination fighting for equal pay is pointless since the reason for the unequal pay is mainly related to the choices made by women/families.



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09 Apr 2012, 2:17 pm

TM wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
TM, ultimately no researcher (either economist or sociologist) can fully explain the gender pay gap without resorting to assumptions, estimates, anecdotes, or generalisations. as i quoted above, even your economist conceded the limitations in the research.


Hence why it should be completely disregarded unless it includes enough variables to conclusively prove that the cause of the pay gap is based on gender discrimination. If its primarily based on other factors, such as women on average working less, picking professions that pay less, taking time out during their most productive years to have children, women voluntarily staying home to take care of the home or other issues not related to employer gender discrimination fighting for equal pay is pointless since the reason for the unequal pay is mainly related to the choices made by women/families.


Women take on lots of jobs and work many hours some times they work longer then men do.



hyperlexian
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09 Apr 2012, 2:18 pm

TM wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
TM, ultimately no researcher (either economist or sociologist) can fully explain the gender pay gap without resorting to assumptions, estimates, anecdotes, or generalisations. as i quoted above, even your economist conceded the limitations in the research.


Hence why it should be completely disregarded unless it includes enough variables to conclusively prove that the cause of the pay gap is based on gender discrimination. If its primarily based on other factors, such as women on average working less, picking professions that pay less, taking time out during their most productive years to have children, women voluntarily staying home to take care of the home or other issues not related to employer gender discrimination fighting for equal pay is pointless since the reason for the unequal pay is mainly related to the choices made by women/families.

those factors cannot be definitively proven to account for the entirety of the pay gap.

here is an interesting article about a study that points to discrimination:

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/ ... -paycheck/


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09 Apr 2012, 2:20 pm

Ragtime wrote:
AceOfSpades wrote:
Wow this is nuts. Seriously? Neo-Nazis patrolling around armed to protect whites is somehow equivalent to having feminist ideals? Looks like someone took the term feminazi too literally.


And with a twist of my words, a strawman is born!


You have made the association between Neo Nazis and Feminists dozens of times. That is no straw man.


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09 Apr 2012, 2:24 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
TM wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
TM, ultimately no researcher (either economist or sociologist) can fully explain the gender pay gap without resorting to assumptions, estimates, anecdotes, or generalisations. as i quoted above, even your economist conceded the limitations in the research.


Hence why it should be completely disregarded unless it includes enough variables to conclusively prove that the cause of the pay gap is based on gender discrimination. If its primarily based on other factors, such as women on average working less, picking professions that pay less, taking time out during their most productive years to have children, women voluntarily staying home to take care of the home or other issues not related to employer gender discrimination fighting for equal pay is pointless since the reason for the unequal pay is mainly related to the choices made by women/families.

those factors cannot be definitively proven to account for the entirety of the pay gap.

here is an interesting article about a study that points to discrimination:

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/ ... -paycheck/


64 people is a small sample group. However, wouldn't it depend on how the person looked post-change as well? I can see hiring Chaz Bono because he looks like an average dude, whereas most men I've seen who go the other way tend to look excessively mannish. It could also have to do with the attitude presented by the person themselves, I can see a female going to male, thus taking testosterone and becoming more "man-like" fitting in better in a blue color job and I can see how someone going from male to female, thus taking estrogen and becoming more emotional (and yes estrogen is tied to emotion) would display as a bad attitude.

I'm not dismissing it, just theorizing about other potential reasons. We also do not know how the people behaved post-change.

Also, on an unrelated note, I'm impressed by your reply speed!



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09 Apr 2012, 2:28 pm

you brought up an interesting point... so you think that women should act like stereotypical men in order to get paid as much as them... and that would be a form of gender discrimination.


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09 Apr 2012, 2:47 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
you brought up an interesting point... so you think that women should act like stereotypical men in order to get paid as much as them... and that would be a form of gender discrimination.


I think that women should be required to be a man's equal in work performance in order to get an equal paycheck. As I said about the doctors earlier, where the men made quite a bit more than the women because they worked 500 hours more per year, in that case the pay gap is perfectly reasonable. Everyone has to make choices as "having it all" is not possible. It's not gender discrimination its performance discrimination. I don't think you mean that a woman should get paid an equal check for lesser work do you? (Not a straw-man, just making sure). This doesn't include "stereotypical male behavior" it means approaching the job in the same way as the people you work with do.

If I work 40 hours a week, take every weekend off, refuse to deal with clients outside of those 40 hours and so on, it wouldn't be fair if I was paid the same check as a colleague that works 60 hours a week, 3 weekends a month and is available for clients 19 hours a day provided the extra time that person put in resulted in more work getting done.

If you were specifically referring to the testosterone and estrogen comments, I don't think I've ever met a woman who say they aren't more emotional when they have more estrogen. More emotion, can manifest in negative ways, such as snapping on clients, crying in meetings and so on. On the same note, punching a client in the face due to more testosterone would have the same negative impact.



Last edited by TM on 09 Apr 2012, 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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09 Apr 2012, 2:48 pm

TM wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
you brought up an interesting point... so you think that women should act like stereotypical men in order to get paid as much as them... and that would be a form of gender discrimination.


I think that women should be required to be a man's equal in work performance in order to get an equal paycheck. As I said about the doctors earlier, where the men made quite a bit more than the women because they worked 500 hours more per year, in that case the pay gap is perfectly reasonable. Everyone has to make choices as "having it all" is not possible. It's not gender discrimination its performance discrimination. I don't think you mean that a woman should get paid an equal check for lesser work do you? (Not a straw-man, just making sure). This doesn't include "stereotypical male behavior" it means approaching the job in the same way as the people you work with do.

If I work 40 hours a week, take every weekend off, refuse to deal with clients outside of those 40 hours and so on, it wouldn't be fair if I was paid the same check as a colleague that works 60 hours a week, 3 weekends a month and is available for clients 19 hours a day provided the extra time that person put in resulted in more work getting done.


Women are equal in work performance but it all depends on what you mean by work performance because men can be just or even more lazy then female workers.



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09 Apr 2012, 2:49 pm

Joker wrote:

Women are equal in work performance but it all depends on what you mean by work performance because men can be just or even more lazy then female workers.


They aren't if they work less hours, as more hours tend to mean more work getting done. More time dedicated to the job also increases the view the company has of you as a person who is loyal and working for the best of the company, therefore increases your odds of being promoted.

Statistics show that women do on average work significantly less than men in terms of hours put in. In essence, if the man and women both put in 40 hours and have equal qualifications, attitudes etc odds are they'll do pretty much similar levels of work, however if one of them puts in 60 hours and the other still puts in 40, odds are that the person putting in 60 will get more done.



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09 Apr 2012, 2:52 pm

TM wrote:
Joker wrote:

Women are equal in work performance but it all depends on what you mean by work performance because men can be just or even more lazy then female workers.


They aren't if they work less hours, as more hours tend to mean more work getting done. More time dedicated to the job also increases the view the company has of you as a person who is loyal and working for the best of the company, therefore increases your odds of being promoted.

Statistics show that women do on average work significantly less than men in terms of hours put in.


A lot of women in the corporate world work very long hour's for example in the fashion industry bankers accountants ect.



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09 Apr 2012, 2:58 pm

Joker wrote:
TM wrote:
Joker wrote:

Women are equal in work performance but it all depends on what you mean by work performance because men can be just or even more lazy then female workers.


They aren't if they work less hours, as more hours tend to mean more work getting done. More time dedicated to the job also increases the view the company has of you as a person who is loyal and working for the best of the company, therefore increases your odds of being promoted.

Statistics show that women do on average work significantly less than men in terms of hours put in.


A lot of women in the corporate world work very long hour's for example in the fashion industry bankers accountants ect.


A lot of them do yes, but more men do according to the statistics I've seen on the matter. Furthermore, research done by both Yale and Harvard show that a smaller amount of women are still working at 35 than are men. However, largely women do less market work than men, add in household chores and its evened out but a corporation could care less about how much work you do around the house.

http://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2006/oct/wk1/art03.htm
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/30/40/43367847.pdf



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09 Apr 2012, 3:10 pm

Joker wrote:
TM wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
TM, ultimately no researcher (either economist or sociologist) can fully explain the gender pay gap without resorting to assumptions, estimates, anecdotes, or generalisations. as i quoted above, even your economist conceded the limitations in the research.


Hence why it should be completely disregarded unless it includes enough variables to conclusively prove that the cause of the pay gap is based on gender discrimination. If its primarily based on other factors, such as women on average working less, picking professions that pay less, taking time out during their most productive years to have children, women voluntarily staying home to take care of the home or other issues not related to employer gender discrimination fighting for equal pay is pointless since the reason for the unequal pay is mainly related to the choices made by women/families.


Women take on lots of jobs and work many hours some times they work longer then men do.


So, when are you going to make the switch? I assume a sex change is one of your goals, since you said in the other thread that you wish you were a woman.


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09 Apr 2012, 3:15 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Joker wrote:
TM wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
TM, ultimately no researcher (either economist or sociologist) can fully explain the gender pay gap without resorting to assumptions, estimates, anecdotes, or generalisations. as i quoted above, even your economist conceded the limitations in the research.


Hence why it should be completely disregarded unless it includes enough variables to conclusively prove that the cause of the pay gap is based on gender discrimination. If its primarily based on other factors, such as women on average working less, picking professions that pay less, taking time out during their most productive years to have children, women voluntarily staying home to take care of the home or other issues not related to employer gender discrimination fighting for equal pay is pointless since the reason for the unequal pay is mainly related to the choices made by women/families.


Women take on lots of jobs and work many hours some times they work longer then men do.


So, when are you going to make the switch? I assume a sex change is one of your goals, since you said in the other thread that you wish you were a woman.


I wish was but if God wanted me to have been born a girl I would have but I am against sex changes it breaks the laws of nature I mean a dog might hate being one doesn't mean you can turn it into a cat.



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09 Apr 2012, 3:34 pm

Joker wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Joker wrote:
TM wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
TM, ultimately no researcher (either economist or sociologist) can fully explain the gender pay gap without resorting to assumptions, estimates, anecdotes, or generalisations. as i quoted above, even your economist conceded the limitations in the research.


Hence why it should be completely disregarded unless it includes enough variables to conclusively prove that the cause of the pay gap is based on gender discrimination. If its primarily based on other factors, such as women on average working less, picking professions that pay less, taking time out during their most productive years to have children, women voluntarily staying home to take care of the home or other issues not related to employer gender discrimination fighting for equal pay is pointless since the reason for the unequal pay is mainly related to the choices made by women/families.


Women take on lots of jobs and work many hours some times they work longer then men do.


So, when are you going to make the switch? I assume a sex change is one of your goals, since you said in the other thread that you wish you were a woman.


I wish was but if God wanted me to have been born a girl I would have but I am against sex changes it breaks the laws of nature I mean a dog might hate being one doesn't mean you can turn it into a cat.


It actually does not break the laws of nature. Some species of amphibian can spontaneously change sex in an monosexual environment for example


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