Do you believe in God?

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Do you believe God exists?

1) God is a being, that one can have a personal relationship. A person God.	29%	[ 55 ]
2) God is an impersonal force that guides reality as it is. He decrees our laws of physics, but does not intervene to break them.	12%	[ 22 ]
3) God does not exist. Reality can be explained by scientific inquiry and the scientific method in by itself.	33%	[ 62 ]
4) I am not sure. There is the possibility that God does exist, or does not. We must follow the preponderance of evidence when drawing our conclusion.	26%	[ 48 ]

Total votes : 187

NoahYates
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08 Mar 2016, 3:19 pm

See, that is a blatantly superficial view of intelligent design.

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AspE
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08 Mar 2016, 3:20 pm

NoahYates wrote:

Do you have faith that your faculties are reliable?

No, which is why science was invented.

AspE
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08 Mar 2016, 3:24 pm

NoahYates wrote:

See, that is a blatantly superficial view of intelligent design.

It's accurate though. If you have some evidence in favor of intelligent design, I've love to hear it.

naturalplastic
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08 Mar 2016, 3:25 pm

I always used to say "God made the Universe. And he/she did it through natural selection."

There may be a deity running the show, and this deity might well be trafficking in evolution. The trouble is that (a) you cant use that as a scientific model. You have to assume naturalistic causes for things. And (b) it messes up conventional American religion because if theistic evolution is going on then you cant have original sin, and can't have the fall of man, and everything in Christian theology that follows from that.

NoahYates
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08 Mar 2016, 3:26 pm

Edenthiel wrote:

"When people claim that their atheism is simply a lack of belief in God, I remind them that agnosticism is actually what they mean, because if they are actually atheist they are positing the claim that there is no God"

Russell's Teapot applies here quite nicely. Atheists accept that not only has it been shown that a god or gods don't exist, they also are not needed, nor do they best explain any observable phenomenon other than those that originate within the minds of Men.

"I feel like people who say we cannot know anything about God are simply ignoring the actual content all of the worlds religions and the entire enterprise of metaphysics and epistemology and science"

Those examples explain much about Man and nothing about god or gods unless one presupposes its/their existence without needing proof. And that fits nicely with the worlds religions, metaphysics, etc. in that they exist not because of reason, but rather tradition (or Tradition, if you prefer).

Also, Pascal's wager only works in a purely heterogeneous (ie one religion) environment. In reality, based on the number of different gods across time and cultures, it is highly probable he would've chosen the wrong one.

My question is,

"Why do theists insist on trying to use reason & science to prove the existence of their god or gods when their realm has been relegated to the gaps?"

In other words, in the face of proof that the sun is the center of our solar system & we are on an arm of a galaxy, in the face of proof that germs exist and cause disease not immoral behavior, in the face of knowledge of what actually causes lightning and thunder...why keep trying to hold that argument together?

It's a losing battle as the gaps get smaller.

Why not regroup and simply let one's god or gods be responsible for the only thing it or they have ever expressed an interest in, the ethical behavior of people toward each other? Why is it so important to try to control the beliefs and lives of others?

This concept of God is a paper tiger.. which is interesting because my whole goal of spreading the Gospel (Good News) is to show that God is not analogous to "the flying spaghetti monster... or the "flying tea kettle"... the "tooth-ferry, or Santa Claus" I do not expect everyone to believe and that is OK. I just want people to respect religion and spiritual people intellectually. And it is very true and a shame that many religious people do not think critically about their beliefs and are therefore unable to defend them under rational scrutiny. Because the concept of God properly and comprehensively understood is the single deepest subject humans have ever plumbed it is extremely difficult to walk that tight rope....

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08 Mar 2016, 3:27 pm

AspE wrote:

NoahYates wrote:

...

Have you heard of theistic evolution or intelligent design? The anthropic principle may have something to it as well. Also... did you watch the series on DNA I recommended. I have shown it to theist and atheist alike and they thoroughly enjoyed it... and it inspired interesting conversation ;-)

Intelligent Design is a political ploy to introduce creationism is school classrooms. In spite of 25 years of this effort, they have failed to produce one peer reviewed scientific paper in support of their thesis.

Whaaa?

Dude, intelligent design simply is the belief that God or some other intelligent being created us, or world, or universe. Is pretty self explanatory, hence the name. Scriptural Christianity for instance ascribes to this view.

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marcb0t
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08 Mar 2016, 3:29 pm

I should add that worldview, discussions, and beliefs are based on that premise for many Christians. Me being one. Well that is to put it on simple terms.

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08 Mar 2016, 3:32 pm

marcb0t wrote:

...Scriptural Christianity for instance ascribes to this view.

My stars! What a coincidence!

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08 Mar 2016, 3:37 pm

You are showing that you have not actually looked at the videos I have posted... because if you had, you would not be asking those questions...which is why I can say that you two are demonstrating your superficial understanding of the issue. I have a cousin who has spent a life time belittling religios people for fun, including me... of course struggling with undiagnosed Asperger's syndrome I had a hard time extemporaneously communicating my ideas and therefore would "lose the argument." Also, I only had largely intuitive, self derived notions of the concept of God at the time. I have since spent countless hours in pursuit of a comprehensive, rigorous understanding of theology and philosophy, and the tables have turned completely... now I understand that the burden of proof is also on the atheist... so basically both sides can lay out arguments and the "elegance" of each solution can be evaluated.

Last edited by NoahYates on 08 Mar 2016, 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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08 Mar 2016, 3:39 pm

The last one is closest to what I think, however in my mind its not a question of does 'god' exist...but rather do multiple gods, entities, spirit beings, spirit energies or whatever else one might call them exist in any form and if so whether or not they have any influence whatsoever on the physical world. Or I also wonder if maybe there are interdimensional beings that have manipulated this dimension and they've just been perceived as 'gods' by humans...so many possibilities with such a line of thinking.

If such things exist though why would there just be one god? Also I find it curious Christianity is 'monotheistic' but then what is the devil? For lack of a better term he's almost viewed as a god by Christians, just a god they don't worship...but still very much in existence and powerful enough to influence humans.

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08 Mar 2016, 3:41 pm

marcb0t wrote:

AspE wrote:

NoahYates wrote:

Hmm....but who created God or some other intelligent being to create us?

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naturalplastic
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08 Mar 2016, 3:42 pm

NoahYates wrote:

See, that is a blatantly superficial view of intelligent design.

Yes. And no.

You have to be careful how you talk about "Intelligent Design".

The phrase "Intelligent Design" is used as a political code word to sneak Young Earth Creationism back into classrooms.

And the phrases "Intelligent Design" and "Theistic Evolution" are rarely spoken by the same people.

Theistic evolution comes from figures like Teilhard De Chardin: a Jesuit intellectual bad boy priest of the 1930's who loved doing paleontology as much as being priest. So to reconcile he evolved his own theistic brand of evolution. Basically: God nudges evolution along over the ages. Interesting. But impossible to prove. Was branded as a heretic by both the Vatican, and (to a lesser degree figuratively) by the scientific community. Though the Vatican has partially restored his reputation recently.

ID is espoused by 21st Century American Protestant Fundamentalist Christians who are -just that- Fundamentalists (the polar opposite of the freethinking De Chardin).

But you're right that believing that the human eye (for example) was designed by a deity would fit into either Young Earth Creationism, or into Old Earth Theistic Evolutionism, equally well. Its only the time scale in which God executed the design that would differ.

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08 Mar 2016, 3:50 pm

Frankly, I have never heard of any of those people... the entire point of all of the concepts is the idea that a Mind created the universe in such a way as to have it people.

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08 Mar 2016, 3:56 pm

Edenthiel
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08 Mar 2016, 4:06 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Ever read Sagan's 'Contact'? It's a more subtle version of the "what if our Universe is just a drop of water on a slide in some higher-order Universe". The concept of which some think may also be the impetus on some level for all of the "Earth is down here, Heaven is up there" structured myths*.

@NoahYates said, "Frankly, I have never heard of any of those people... the entire point of all of the concepts is the idea that a Mind created the universe in such a way as to have it people."

Doesn't that sorta presume that we are the most important of all? Maybe said universe was created to have arthropods, since they outnumber us by orders of magnitude. Or maybe it was created for some creature which only knows peace and kindness and we are seen in the same light as fungus on a loaf of bread when you take it out of the drawer...

*traditional culture stories, not speaking as to the validity or truth.

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NoahYates
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08 Mar 2016, 4:30 pm

I feel like for all the same reasons any humanist would cite, we are indeed very special.
viewtopic.php?t=307538

And, personally I have not read that book, but I really love Carl... he is an agnostic I can stand behind.

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