What Makes People Vote Republican?

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Dox47
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27 Nov 2010, 1:59 pm

number5 wrote:

The consuming public are not generally very intelligent. They've made Paris Hilton a star and Lindsay Lohan a top story way too many times. The general public can't even name the 3 branches of government. If the goal of the newsmakers is profit above all else, we all suffer.

I'm not advocating a shut-down of any media, and I don't believe the senator really does either. But what's going on today is a manipulation of the news. It's gone from being objective to subjective and the public is at a disservice (they're just not smart enough to realize it). People have great difficulty distinguishing an editorial from a news piece and it's a good idea to resharpen the line. There must be a way to somehow force integrity back into journalism because it's just too important to leave it solely to the consumer. We're not exactly talking about a toy or a sweater here, but rather the source by which most make their voting decisions by. Why not make a law about what can and what cannot be called "news?"

Bold is mine.

I'm not trying to derail the thread here or start any more ideological sniping, but the sections I put in bold are exactly the kind of statements that lead to liberals and leftists getting tagged as elitist or condescending, and you may want to better qualify them in the future. Give people a little credit, obviously biased new is just that, obvious, and anyone who's interested in what's really going on just has to work a little harder to multi-source something or find a provider they trust, and forcing that level of involvement isn't entirely a bad thing. It's not an ideal situation, but it's hardly the end of journalism and certainly not a catalyst necessitating draconian and possibly unconstitutional restrictions on speech.

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27 Nov 2010, 2:07 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

Just for fun...:

“There’s a little bug inside of me which wants to get the FCC to say to FOX and to MSNBC: ‘Out. Off. End. Goodbye.’ It would be a big favor to political discourse; our ability to do our work here in Congress, and to the American people, to be able to talk with each other and have some faith in their government and more importantly, in their future.”

– Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D-WV).

To think that creatures like this purport to guard our liberties.

ruveyn

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Orwell
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27 Nov 2010, 5:25 pm

Dox47 wrote:

number5 wrote:

Reality is condescending and elitist? The bolded portions are factual claims. Generally speaking, people are idiots.

Not to say I agree with 5's proposed solution at all. But his claims are accurate enough. People have a miserable track record at assessing the validity and objectivity of sources, and are too easily swayed by emotional appeals.

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ruveyn
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27 Nov 2010, 5:34 pm

Orwell wrote:

Reality is condescending and elitist? The bolded portions are factual claims. Generally speaking, people are idiots.

.

Generally speaking, people are NOT idiots. They may have a limited view of matters. They may be tied up in their own peculiar interests and problems and lack a breadth of concern, but they are not stupid. Idiocy is in infrequent occurrence in the spectrum of mental skills. Most people are (almost by definition0 mediocre.

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Dox47
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27 Nov 2010, 5:48 pm

Orwell wrote:

You're really going to argue that calling the vast majority of the populace idiots and morons isn't just a touch condescending? By definition most people are going to be of average intelligence; to proclaim those people who are not above average are all stupid doesn't strike you as at all elitist?

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number5
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27 Nov 2010, 6:29 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Maybe idiot was the wrong word ( I never said moron), but easily swayed and manipulated, as well as poorly educated, would be fairly accurate. I think the left and the right are in agreement that the current state of our education system is pretty sad. I stand by my claim that too many Americans can't name the 3 branches of government, especially true with the younger generations. Feel free to do your own random street test.

Shouldn't we hold our journalists to a higher intellectual standard than the average citizen? We should be able to expect them to be completely knowledgeable in their field of expertise, including ethical standards. We should empower our citizens by letting them know exactly what it is that they are listening to, reading, watching, etc. and not just put it in the fine print that no one pays attention to. Enough people call The O'Reilly Factor and The Rachael Maddow Show "the news" that it really has become cause for concern.

It's kind of like a library or a bookstore where there the fiction and non-fiction sections are completely separate. I'm not suggesting that we get rid of any books, just that they should be shelved appropriately. I don't want my kid to read Charlotte's Web and think that animals really talk. That does not mean that I don't want him to read the book, but rather that he have the appropriate context in which the book was written. Again I must ask, why is this idea a bad thing?

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27 Nov 2010, 7:10 pm

I love Bill O'Reilly and I tune into his program religiously on a daily basis. I hang on every word.

Glenn Beck as well.

I have a lifesized cardboard cutout of Glenn Beck in my bedroom with a backprop, complete with a small altar at the feet where I routinely sacrifice doves. Sometimes I have insane fantasies of being a Glenn Beck minion and doing his dirty work, but I awake in agony knowing that I shall never be summoned for so lofty a calling. I dream of sending off trollish letters to Al Franken and Michael Moore in the name of Glenn Beck.

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27 Nov 2010, 7:12 pm

I can't get enough of the Bill O'Reilly pogrom program.

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27 Nov 2010, 7:22 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Orwell wrote:

If you want to regard it as condescending, fine. But "average" humans are not very intelligent creatures.

Anyways, 5's point was more that people are grossly misinformed/underinformed on basic issues. I don't think you're silly enough to argue against that.

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Master_Pedant
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27 Nov 2010, 7:27 pm

Orwell wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Perhaps from the 99th percentile most people seem stupid, but it's really not a problem of native intellect so much as time constraints preventing many working people from becoming informed. If you work at a crappy job 50 hours a week, it's really hard to find the energy to conduct elaborate research projects.

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ruveyn
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27 Nov 2010, 9:13 pm

People above the 50th percentile in intelligence are smarter than average.

ruveyn

marshall
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27 Nov 2010, 9:23 pm

Orwell wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

Orwell wrote:

I think what comes across as snobbish is when someone seems to imply that the main thing keeping people on the opposite side of the isle from embracing their views is lack of information, misinformation, or lack of intelligence. It's the "if only you weren't an idiot you would see things my way" vibe.

This isn't really true as most people will retain their beliefs even as they gain more knowledge. They just interpret the new knowledge they gain as supporting thier already existing beliefs and mostly dismiss things that call their beliefs into question. Most people are just too stubborn to let facts persuade them into changing their ideology. Even the most intelligent people are capable of being stubborn and intellectually dishonest. I have a really hard time understanding how young earth creationists can hold on to their beliefs without seeing them as idiots, but in reality a lot of creationists are somewhat intelligent. It just seems like they choose to defy the answer which looks so much more intuitive to me.

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27 Nov 2010, 9:40 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:

Perhaps from the 99th percentile most people seem stupid, but it's really not a problem of native intellect so much as time constraints preventing many working people from becoming informed. If you work at a crappy job 50 hours a week, it's really hard to find the energy to conduct elaborate research projects.

I firmly believe that in many cases it is a problem of native intellect. I have watched people with above average intelligence attempting to use their intellect. The results of such endeavors are seldom encouraging.

Granted that education could go a long way in many cases and some of the deficiencies are probably because of a lack of education, but from what I can tell most people do have surprisingly low limits on what they are intellectually capable of doing.

marshall wrote:

Who was it again who said of his political opponents, "The problem with [them] isn't that they're ignorant. It's that just that they know so much that isn't so" thus implying that anyone who disagreed with him must be delusional?

And frankly, there are a number of issues where such an attitude is justified. There are a lot of political views out there, especially in the recent Tea Party Movement, that are completely indefensible if you accept basic established facts.

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ruveyn
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27 Nov 2010, 9:57 pm

To those who disrespect "average folks" and deem them unintelligent I say beware: These people vote the the legislators they put into office write the laws which govern you life.

ruveyn

Orwell
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27 Nov 2010, 10:23 pm

ruveyn wrote:

To those who disrespect "average folks" and deem them unintelligent I say beware: These people vote the the legislators they put into office write the laws which govern you life.

ruveyn

Does my personal opinion of the average person have any significant impact on people's voting patterns?

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28 Nov 2010, 1:06 am

Orwell wrote:

Reality is condescending and elitist? The bolded portions are factual claims. Generally speaking, people are idiots.

First of all what you believe to be reality isn't necessarily what is actually reality. Furthermore, you are extremely condecending pretty much 95% of the time, and you behave like an elitist about as often.

Orwell wrote:

Not to say I agree with 5's proposed solution at all. But his claims are accurate enough. People have a miserable track record at assessing the validity and objectivity of sources, and are too easily swayed by emotional appeals.

Pot calling the Kettle black there.

Fox News looks like they never give any opinions compared to some of the sources you guys use.

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