Poll about Legalized Prostitution

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ArrantPariah
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28 Oct 2012, 11:15 am

puddingmouse wrote:

ArrantPariah wrote:

"Patriarchy" is starting to sound like the kind of term that Conspiracy Theorists love to throw around. Now I'm using it.

Sociologists would disagree.

Do Sociologists also like to pin blame on the Illuminati, the Freemasons, the New World Order and George Soros?

ruveyn
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28 Oct 2012, 11:54 am

We do have legalized prostitution. It is called running for public office.

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Misslizard
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28 Oct 2012, 12:02 pm

ruveyn wrote:

We do have legalized prostitution. It is called running for public office.

ruveyn

enrico_dandolo
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28 Oct 2012, 12:39 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:

enrico_dandolo wrote:

I would imagine that an orgasm within a relationship is different from an orgasm without.

All that you are doing is squirting semen. Same difference.

The emotional value is different.

Intimate relationships are not only a prerequisite to sex. They have value in themselves. From that point of view, sex is just an aspect of the relationship, not its sole object.

puddingmouse wrote:

enrico_dandolo wrote:

Oh. Then why are we arguing?

I think prostitution is misrepresented and I don't think other people that favour it's legality are intellectually honest about the harms it causes. There are studies that have shown that the number or trafficked women and girls increases after legalisation and regulation - and so does the number of child prostitutes. Also, legalisation and regulation as they are currently enacted don't offer the prostitutes much more in the way of safety and healthcare. I can go into more detail about this if you like, but currently in places where prostitution is regulated, the emphasis is on protecting the punter, not the prostitutes. Pretending that legalisation and regulation in themselves will solve the 'problems' of abuse of prostitutes is dangerous.

I think we need a completely different approach to this if we are going to legalise and regulate it.

In that case, granted.

puddingmouse
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28 Oct 2012, 12:53 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:

The "physical self" being important to one's "self concept": whether talking psychologically or spiritually, it amounts to the same line of reasoning. The judgmental aspect of your outlook is fundamentally similar to a religious perspective. Labeling someone as "abusive" merely because he wants an orgasm, and is willing to pay someone to administer it, could just as well be coming from a church-goer.

I don't think it is about orgasms. Studies have shown that even men have stronger orgasms when they stimulate themselves (they know their own responses and exactly how they like it). If orgasm is exactly what you are seeking, there are cheaper and more efficient methods of procuring it.

I'm sorry, but I love women. I love it when they have pleasure and when they are into me. This is also how I feel about men who are into having mutually satisfying sex, as well. The idea of an approach to sexuality that is so one-sided to me seems abusive. My point of view isn't someone who is morally outraged, but that of someone who loves sex. I'm not saying that you as a person are abusive, but that the model of sex promoted by the sex industry is.

ArrantPariah
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28 Oct 2012, 1:10 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

Of course, one may administer one's own orgasm, or buy some sort of apparatus for the event. Some people like a bit of company, and are willing to pay for it.

puddingmouse wrote:

I'm sorry, but I love women. I love it when they have pleasure and when they are into me. This is also how I feel about men who are into having mutually satisfying sex, as well. The idea of an approach to sexuality that is so one-sided to me seems abusive. My point of view isn't someone who is morally outraged, but that of someone who loves sex. I'm not saying that you as a person are abusive, but that the model of sex promoted by the sex industry is.

Rape would be abusive and completely one-sided. The voluntary exchange of money for services should make it non-abusive, and mitigate the one-sidedness for the paid party.

ArrantPariah
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28 Oct 2012, 1:13 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

Studies have shown that even men have stronger orgasms when they stimulate themselves (they know their own responses and exactly how they like it).

Wait a minute. What studies are these? Who was doing the studies? And, why are you busy reading all of these studies?

puddingmouse
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28 Oct 2012, 2:19 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

Studies have shown that even men have stronger orgasms when they stimulate themselves (they know their own responses and exactly how they like it).

Wait a minute. What studies are these? Who was doing the studies? And, why are you busy reading all of these studies?

Sorry, I read it a long time ago. I know that sounds like a cop out. I don't read lots of studies, I just remember the ones I have read. :oops:

puddingmouse
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28 Oct 2012, 2:24 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:

Rape would be abusive and completely one-sided. The voluntary exchange of money for services should make it non-abusive, and mitigate the one-sidedness for the paid party.

I mean mutual on a sexual level. Monetary motivations are no substitute for me, for someone who actually wants to do it for its own sake.

Can we let this die now? I have negative opinion of the sex industry and I think I've stated it to a more than sufficient degree. You are probably a decent enough person, but our attitudes towards sex are antagonistic and will always be so.

Tequila
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28 Oct 2012, 2:27 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:

The voluntary exchange of money for services should make it non-abusive, and mitigate the one-sidedness for the paid party.

Yup - if the person really didn't want to do it, they shouldn't be doing so. If the 'transaction' is abusive, it wouldn't matter whether money was on the table or not - it's irrelevant, as it's not a free and fair transaction in the first place. The presence of money really doesn't make any difference. It's still something that is forced.

A lot of women get very rich by simply doing something that they like doing anyway - I'd rather get £200 for something that I really liked doing and was making the other person happy than just giving it out for free, and if I could choose my clients I don't see a downside.

puddingmouse
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28 Oct 2012, 6:47 pm

Tequila wrote:

ArrantPariah wrote:

The voluntary exchange of money for services should make it non-abusive, and mitigate the one-sidedness for the paid party.

That sort of thing, I haven't much problem with. The fact is, half the prostitutes in Amsterdam are trafficked. A lot of punters seem not to care. That's the sort of mindset I find pathological. If someone wants to spend megabucks on high class call girls, and those girls enjoy the work, then I don't mind. I daresay the majority of prostitution isn't like that. I don't like it when the 'glamorous' end of the trade obscures the other side of things. The amount of abuse that occurs is so depressingly widespread that I think it reflects a wider abusive attitude to sex in society. This is why legalisation and regulation on its own won't do anything whilst these attitudes remain unexamined.

I was being too general when I said anyone who buys sex has an abusive attitude, but I don't think it's rare amongst punters. I think if we are to have real sexual liberation, then we need to both be liberal, but also critical.

Last edited by puddingmouse on 28 Oct 2012, 6:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ArrantPariah
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28 Oct 2012, 6:50 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

I suppose that I should be grateful that at least no-one is seriously considering outlawing masturbation.

ArrantPariah
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28 Oct 2012, 6:57 pm

enrico_dandolo wrote:

Intimate relationships are not only a prerequisite to sex. They have value in themselves. From that point of view, sex is just an aspect of the relationship, not its sole object.

Relationships take time and effort, and sometimes lead to hurt feelings, etc.

Alex's character in the video above is probably thinking "This lady is extremely attractive, and I would really enjoy boning her." But, he can't just come out and state his desires (if that is what he wants). She may be thinking "You're not getting into my shorts until after our wedding, Buster!" There are too many complicated things through which to navigate.

puddingmouse
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28 Oct 2012, 7:01 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

I suppose that I should be grateful that at least no-one is seriously considering outlawing masturbation.

Look, I'm sorry that prostitution is illegal in your country. I don't think that achieves anything.

I'm also sorry if I associated you with the abusive mentality of a lot of punters of the sex industry. I have a deep hatred of that sort of thing that I don't think either the pro-prostitution lobby, or the anti-prostitution groups address. Too many liberals seem to be happy with legalisation and not enough rights for the workers in the industry. Too many conservatives and feminists who want prostitution to be illegal want to think that the problems will go away if we moralise enough.

ArrantPariah
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28 Oct 2012, 7:08 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

I'm also sorry if I associated you with the abusive mentality of a lot of punters of the sex industry.

Oh, it's okay. I'm not really an abusive sort of bloke. If no-one wants my money, then fine.

Pondering
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28 Oct 2012, 7:12 pm

I imagine if someone could just go somewhere in their city which is safe and legal to get their willy tugged on or their hole filled by a willing sex worker, this world would be a better place. If not better, a lot of people would be more relaxed and happy... Which seems better to me.

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