inconsistent Creationists

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According to Genesis, G-d created Adam out of mud. And it only took him a few seconds to accomplish this. For a pile of mud to turn into a fully formed adult man in such a short duration of time is a gross violation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

I have asked you before, as I have asked many creationists, to demonstrate PHYSICALLY(IRL) that this is actually possible! My idea is to fill a shoebox full of dirt, pour holy water over it, have one of your christian brethren pray over it and watch that mud turn into a live jackrabbit in the twinkling of an eye. If you want to disprove evolution, you must first PROVE that creationism as described in Genesis is physically possible!

The whole point is that it is NOT physically possible. Why assume God is limited by laws of physics? God can do whatever He wants--it's HIS universe, after all. He can work with nature's own timing, He can manipulate natural forces to get it done, or He can supernaturally intervene.

The ONLY way you even have a case here is if you assume from the outset that there is no God or, if there is, that He cannot exercise a power unknown to us in the physical world to accomplish His will. The PHYSICAL impossibility does not negate God's ability to act. In fact, if you can accept that those things actually did happen, the fact that it is PHYSICALLY impossible is actually pretty strong evidence that those events had supernatural origins. In short, science just detected an act of God.

In that case, let me spell it out for you: Show me in person what your God can do! That is, convince God to violate physical law right before my very eyes!


I dont give 2 s**ts and fart about your assertion that this alleged being you call God can do what you say he can. Remember, EXTRAORDINARY CLAIMS REQUIRE EXTRAORDINARY EVIDENCE.
Your philosophical arguments are just not enough to convince me that the creation of Adam out of mud actually happened.

And if God can do whatever he wants? Does that mean he can make a stone so big that he can't lift it?

Noah makes no more sense than Adam. Eight people means 16 allele variants per locus. Today they know of many more alleles per locus than that. For Noah's descendants to generate that diversity in just the past few thousand years would require super magical evolution. An incredibly high rate of mutation.

Noah's animals have the same problem. No breeding pair or small group could hold as many alleles as have been found today. That's where creationists and IDers resort to semantics by saying that it's not evolution, but a kind of rapid devolution , or not really "new information'. Which I'm sure is amusing to them but it has no traction in the real world. They'll still be saying it fifty years from now. And still be a joke.

"EXTRAORDINARY" according to WHO exactly? The claims that these things DIDN'T happen should seem extraordinary to any believer; it is to ME, anyway, and probably would to any believer who stopped to think about it. So if you can't provide extraordinary evidence against the God of the Bible, then why should I have a heavier burden of proof than you're willing to bear?

You claim that God created Adam from mud. I claim absolutely nothing. You show me the evidence. I don't care if it's extraordinary.

Im not sure if its been said here, but it needs saying.

"We could still imagine that there is a set of laws that determines events completely for some supernatural being, who could observe the present state of the universe without disturbing it. However, such models of the universe are not of much interest to us mortals. It seems better to employ the principle known as Occam's razor and cut out all the features of the theory that cannot be observed." -- SH.

That sounds like some kind of witchcraft or warlockery, animating a golem out of mud!!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6XWw7KwJkg[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQQrTZ1x2EM&feature=relmfu[/youtube][youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQXnS9narng&feature=related[/youtube]

If God can indeed violate physical law than it's God responsibility to demonstrate this to me if I'm going to believe it. What you or anyone else believes is actually irrelevant. I want the proof. Until I have the physical proof, then I'm calling BS on you(& the guy up there! ) If you make a positive claim(that these things did happen), then you are the one who bears the burden of proof. What I'm actually doing is not proclaiming that they did not happen, I'm questioning your claim that they did. If you wish to convince non-believers you're doing it wrong.

Great! If God weighs the same as a duck, he's a witch, and we can burn him!

So.... mentioning the bibles lack of internal logic does NOT weaken your case? How so?

On the end of the "fifth day of creation" the universe was... guess what.... five days old. Each day was one day long. Thats why it was called a "day". To claim otherwise is pure doubletalk!

Worse than that. Its heresy! you're doubting the litereal word of God!

Okay -so God created Man "in his image" - and then some untold thousands of years later- adam and eve came along and did their original sin thing. That first man God created in the first chapter of genisis was not the same dude as Adam.

He was a distant ancestor of all us including Adam and Eve.

This nameless man was fruitful and mulitplied and then many generations later during some long interval that the bible skips over then world is filled up with people- including Adam and Eve. So adam and eve had millions of contemporaries all over the Earth- but lived in this little sequestered garden of eden place away from the rest of humanity, and from the rest of nature.

Have I got this right?

Thats the first time Ive heard that interpretation ever given to Genisis.

Okay so for those thousands of years between the two parts of the Genisis millions of people lived and died. So why werent these people immortal since mortality was one of the results of original sin?

Last edited by naturalplastic on 13 Aug 2012, 4:11 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Because any proof that a non-believer has to validate their claims would fill an entire library (Every Scientific method, theory, law, examination, and study). To the best of my knowledge, God has yet to smite the Large Hadron Collider (despite comments made by the Catholic church to the opposite, just at the insinuation of it being turned on). God has also yet to smite Stephen Hawking (whom I quothe just above). For that matter, I dont think God smote Sir Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, Neils Bohr, Georg Ohm or any other scientist for that matter. And tossing out the "Well when they die, they will have to answer to a higher judge" is nothing more than Hubris on your part, and yet again, no proof such a thing will actually happen.

God may have smote Voltaire though. He was defiant. "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to create him."

All you have is a small collection of books, which in numerous places constantly contradicts itself, the origin of which is based on questionable historical texts (The Dead Sea Scrolls) found in the Qumran caves , that for which comprises the Jewish Torah, in Addition to the Greek New Testament translations. You can only translate things from the same source so many times.

Plus, the Quran's account of the virgin birth is actually much cooler. (http://quran.com/19 -- parallels roughly the Gospel of Luke).

Physical proof of a supernatural, spiritual being? I mean, even if I DID give you "proof," you wouldn't believe it, anyway.

Besides, science never "proves" anything. How you approach evidence is going to depend on your presuppositions. I'm more inclined to believe that there is a God and that He created everything. The Bible provides a number of recorded events that detail how God directly related to believers in the past. The world as it exists today is part of the ongoing result of that relationship between God and His creation. So when I look at the universe as a whole, I see evidence that God exists.

You're looking at exactly the same evidence from some experiential background or anti-supernatural prejudice/bias that informs you that the supernatural is impossible, perhaps reinforced by confirmation bias.

The statement in bold is incorrect. I am actually an agnostic rather than a confirmed atheist. The existence of God is non-falsifiable, whereas creation stories about the physical world are. Biblical creationism isn't so much about God, as much as it is about the veracity of a book which christians claim to be the (infallible)word of God. So let's get to the creation myth of the biblical book of Genesis: What evidence do you have that this creation story actually happened the way it was written?