Page 13 of 20 [ 308 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16 ... 20  Next

cathylynn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,045
Location: northeast US

08 Jan 2017, 1:09 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
as someone who has performed rape exams and testified in rape trials, i can say that there is not usually a presumption of guilt. i tended to believe my patients, the police not such believers. and there are far more rapes that are never reported and reported rapists who get away with it than there are false accusations. MRA's clutch onto every false accusation as if it were the holy grail. none of it is right, not the false accusations, nor the victim shaming and blaming. my very favorite rape incident story involves two school girls who were abducted at gunpoint while i was working in the ER. the alleged rapist put down the gun to rape one. the other picked up a brick and knocked him out. the girls came in for a rape exam. not long after the alleged rapist came in for treatment for a head wound. the girls ID'd him and he was arrested.
Touché!! Your argument is indisputable.


dispute away. you're going to have to do better than the post where you claim men are oppressed ( I think they are by being expected to live up to some macho standard) because i couldn't force myself to read beyond the first article after finding it had little to do with the claim you said it supported. two false accusations don't add up to systemic oppression.



Shahunshah
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,225
Location: NZ

08 Jan 2017, 1:16 am

feral botanist wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
However, if you want specific examples
1. The systematic presumption of guilt by the police in rape accusations
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11912748/Guilty-until-proven-innocent-life-after-a-false-rape-accusation.html

2. The systematic presumption of guilt by the military in rape accusations
https://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/false-rape-culture/a-soldiers-story-the-travesty-of-false-allegation/

3. The systematic presumption of guilt by colleges in rape accusations
http://reason.com/archives/2013/12/17/guilty-until-proven-innocent

4. Having your gender declared "toxic"
http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/29757/

5. Having your entire gender blamed for the actions of a few
http://everydayfeminism.com/2016/10/yes-actually-it-is-all-men/

6. Being unable to defend themselves from domestic violence
https://domestic-violence-law.com/domestic-abuse-against-men/

7. Being admitted into college at a lower rates
http://www.rooshv.com/american-men-are-being-institutionally-oppressed

8. Being denied a voice on campus
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11670138/Why-are-our-universities-blocking-mens-societies.html

9. Restrictions on the number of men who can participate in college sports
http://time.com/2912420/titleix-anniversary/

10. Discrimination against boys in schools
url]https://www.amazon.com/War-Against-Boys-Misguided-Policies/dp/1501125427[/url]

11. Having our motives questioned when we open up a facility for men and boys
http://globalnews.ca/news/1676642/controversial-centre-for-men-opens-in-toronto-amid-criticism/

You probably already know about all this. You said yourself men experience sexism first so you're already aware this. However, you said I was being obtuse so I thought perhaps it was being I wasn't providing any specific examples.

Is this oppression of men by women? Not always. Much of the oppression of men is enacted by other men. Yes, this is men's fault.


When men, particularly white men claim to be oppressed, I can not help but laugh. Those poor men have is so tough.
In the United States. 25 million white people live in poverty. That is more than the amount of African Americans 10 million and Hispanics 10 million put together. The majority of people living off food stamps are white people. If you look at the states of West Virginia and Kentucky the income is 40,000 that is less than what is earned by Hispanic Americans.

Stop denigrating White Americans many of them have it tough. We got to reach out to those people.



cathylynn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Aug 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 13,045
Location: northeast US

08 Jan 2017, 1:28 am

Shahunshah wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
However, if you want specific examples
1. The systematic presumption of guilt by the police in rape accusations
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11912748/Guilty-until-proven-innocent-life-after-a-false-rape-accusation.html

2. The systematic presumption of guilt by the military in rape accusations
https://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/false-rape-culture/a-soldiers-story-the-travesty-of-false-allegation/

3. The systematic presumption of guilt by colleges in rape accusations
http://reason.com/archives/2013/12/17/guilty-until-proven-innocent

4. Having your gender declared "toxic"
http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/29757/

5. Having your entire gender blamed for the actions of a few
http://everydayfeminism.com/2016/10/yes-actually-it-is-all-men/

6. Being unable to defend themselves from domestic violence
https://domestic-violence-law.com/domestic-abuse-against-men/

7. Being admitted into college at a lower rates
http://www.rooshv.com/american-men-are-being-institutionally-oppressed

8. Being denied a voice on campus
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11670138/Why-are-our-universities-blocking-mens-societies.html

9. Restrictions on the number of men who can participate in college sports
http://time.com/2912420/titleix-anniversary/

10. Discrimination against boys in schools
url]https://www.amazon.com/War-Against-Boys-Misguided-Policies/dp/1501125427[/url]

11. Having our motives questioned when we open up a facility for men and boys
http://globalnews.ca/news/1676642/controversial-centre-for-men-opens-in-toronto-amid-criticism/

You probably already know about all this. You said yourself men experience sexism first so you're already aware this. However, you said I was being obtuse so I thought perhaps it was being I wasn't providing any specific examples.

Is this oppression of men by women? Not always. Much of the oppression of men is enacted by other men. Yes, this is men's fault.


When men, particularly white men claim to be oppressed, I can not help but laugh. Those poor men have is so tough.
In the United States. 25 million white people live in poverty. That is more than the amount of African Americans 10 million and Hispanics 10 million put together. The majority of people living off food stamps are white people. If you look at the states of West Virginia and Kentucky the income is 40,000 that is less than what is earned by Hispanic Americans.

Stop denigrating White Americans many of them have it tough. We got to reach out to those people.


are you being sarcastic? raw numbers don't tell the story. the % of minorites who live in poverty is much higher,



Shahunshah
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,225
Location: NZ

08 Jan 2017, 1:43 am

cathylynn wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
However, if you want specific examples
1. The systematic presumption of guilt by the police in rape accusations
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11912748/Guilty-until-proven-innocent-life-after-a-false-rape-accusation.html

2. The systematic presumption of guilt by the military in rape accusations
https://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/false-rape-culture/a-soldiers-story-the-travesty-of-false-allegation/

3. The systematic presumption of guilt by colleges in rape accusations
http://reason.com/archives/2013/12/17/guilty-until-proven-innocent

4. Having your gender declared "toxic"
http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/29757/

5. Having your entire gender blamed for the actions of a few
http://everydayfeminism.com/2016/10/yes-actually-it-is-all-men/

6. Being unable to defend themselves from domestic violence
https://domestic-violence-law.com/domestic-abuse-against-men/

7. Being admitted into college at a lower rates
http://www.rooshv.com/american-men-are-being-institutionally-oppressed

8. Being denied a voice on campus
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11670138/Why-are-our-universities-blocking-mens-societies.html

9. Restrictions on the number of men who can participate in college sports
http://time.com/2912420/titleix-anniversary/

10. Discrimination against boys in schools
url]https://www.amazon.com/War-Against-Boys-Misguided-Policies/dp/1501125427[/url]

11. Having our motives questioned when we open up a facility for men and boys
http://globalnews.ca/news/1676642/controversial-centre-for-men-opens-in-toronto-amid-criticism/

You probably already know about all this. You said yourself men experience sexism first so you're already aware this. However, you said I was being obtuse so I thought perhaps it was being I wasn't providing any specific examples.

Is this oppression of men by women? Not always. Much of the oppression of men is enacted by other men. Yes, this is men's fault.


When men, particularly white men claim to be oppressed, I can not help but laugh. Those poor men have is so tough.
In the United States. 25 million white people live in poverty. That is more than the amount of African Americans 10 million and Hispanics 10 million put together. The majority of people living off food stamps are white people. If you look at the states of West Virginia and Kentucky the income is 40,000 that is less than what is earned by Hispanic Americans.

Stop denigrating White Americans many of them have it tough. We got to reach out to those people.


are you being sarcastic? raw numbers don't tell the story. the % of minorites who live in poverty is much higher,
It is higher. But if we paint white people with the same dismal brush and ignore the struggles they go through we risk alienating them.

I did not say this but the median African American income is actually only slightly higher 39,000 than it is for the median African American income 35,000.



RetroGamer87
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,186
Location: Adelaide, Australia

08 Jan 2017, 2:02 am

feral botanist wrote:
When men, particularly white men claim to be oppressed, I can not help but laugh. Those poor men have is so tough.
This is a major cause of oppression. When a group of people get told their problems aren't real or don't matter.


_________________
The days are long, but the years are short


Shahunshah
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,225
Location: NZ

08 Jan 2017, 2:04 am

RetroGamer87 wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
When men, particularly white men claim to be oppressed, I can not help but laugh. Those poor men have is so tough.
This is a major cause of oppression. When a group of people get told their problems aren't real or don't matter.
Thank you retro. Damn toxic SJWs.



RetroGamer87
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,186
Location: Adelaide, Australia

08 Jan 2017, 2:06 am

Shahunshah wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
When men, particularly white men claim to be oppressed, I can not help but laugh. Those poor men have is so tough.
This is a major cause of oppression. When a group of people get told their problems aren't real or don't matter.
Thank you retro. Damn toxic SJWs.
That's a good term for them. It's sadly ironic the way they think they're helping people but really they're marginalising millions of people. One day people like feral botanist may have a harmful effect on public policy.


_________________
The days are long, but the years are short


RetroGamer87
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,186
Location: Adelaide, Australia

08 Jan 2017, 2:22 am

cathylynn wrote:
RetroGamer87 wrote:
cathylynn wrote:
as someone who has performed rape exams and testified in rape trials, i can say that there is not usually a presumption of guilt. i tended to believe my patients, the police not such believers. and there are far more rapes that are never reported and reported rapists who get away with it than there are false accusations. MRA's clutch onto every false accusation as if it were the holy grail. none of it is right, not the false accusations, nor the victim shaming and blaming. my very favorite rape incident story involves two school girls who were abducted at gunpoint while i was working in the ER. the alleged rapist put down the gun to rape one. the other picked up a brick and knocked him out. the girls came in for a rape exam. not long after the alleged rapist came in for treatment for a head wound. the girls ID'd him and he was arrested.
Touché!! Your argument is indisputable.
dispute away. you're going to have to do better than the post where you claim men are oppressed ( I think they are by being expected to live up to some macho standard) because i couldn't force myself to read beyond the first article after finding it had little to do with the claim you said it supported. two false accusations don't add up to systemic oppression.
No they don't. The "systematic" part doesn't come from the false accusation but from the way systems deal with it.

As you said, when you dealt with rape investigations, there was no presumption of guilt. Not all proceedings are so enlightened. Not everyone wants to keep it that way.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect to eliminate false rape accusations from society. Just as I don't expect we'll ever eliminate burglary or fraud or any kind of crime. As I said, the "systematic" part does not come from the accusers.

Of course men are expected to live up to a macho standard. Sometimes by women but often by other men. I'm not saying we should eliminate the macho elements of our culture. Moving men from one small box to another won't help anyone. I'd like to see a culture based around individual differences.

I was once involved with a woman who false rape accusations against other men and I was scared. You might not think that's very macho of me but I think I had good reason to be scared. I'm not in contact with her anymore.

I'm not trying to say I was more scared of her than women are of potential rapists. I don't think that way. It doesn't matter who has it worse. All problems are serious even when other people have worse problems.

If Fred broke his arm and Barney broke both of his arms, I would not expect Fred to refuse medical treatment on the basis that his problem isn't as bad as Barney's.

Honestly I don't expect you to read through all that text. It would take ages. I provided the links mainly as sources.


_________________
The days are long, but the years are short


Campin_Cat
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2014
Age: 64
Gender: Female
Posts: 25,953
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, U.S.A.

08 Jan 2017, 3:13 am

cathylynn wrote:
i couldn't force myself to read beyond the first article after finding it had little to do with the claim you said it supported. two false accusations don't add up to systemic oppression.

Good GOD----do you EVER learn (read)! !

First-of-all, RetroGamer87 said right in his title for #1: "
The systematic presumption of guilt by the police in rape accusations"----and, he didn't use the word "systemic"----AND, if his title's not enough to convince you, how 'bout THESE statements:

The Telegraph wrote:
- "...found it difficult to cope with the police investigation..."
- "You will almost certainly feel that the police believe that you're guilty before trial."
- "I still feel as though I was attacked by some sort of monster - that I was tormented and abused by the system."
- "In the domestic abuse system, the authorities - be this the police, the court or social workers - seem to believe the first person who makes the allegations. ... ...the result is that if you are innocent and falsely accused, the system will, almost 100 per cent of the time, support your accuser's attempts to frame you."
- "They believe they have been treated unfairly by police officers..."

As for "two false accusations": It's awful funny that I read SIX (Jay, James, Chris, David, Ben, and Nigel)----and, statements, like:

The Telegraph wrote:
- "A growing group of men..."
- "James and his fellow false allegation victims..."
- "He sympathises with the campaigners' desire for change..."
- "...why not extend it to defendants?"
- "...a growing community of wronged men..."
- "...and many more individuals have fallen victim to malicious allegations of rape and sexual assault."

.....are enough to convince ME, that there are many more, where THEY came-from----see all those esses / plurals, in there!!




_________________
White female; age 59; diagnosed Aspie.
I use caps for emphasis----I'm NOT angry or shouting. I use caps like others use italics, underline, or bold.
"What we know is a drop; what we don't know, is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)


Campin_Cat
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2014
Age: 64
Gender: Female
Posts: 25,953
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, U.S.A.

08 Jan 2017, 3:49 am

Shahunshah wrote:
Don't wanna beat a dead horse here. But just for the future how inappropriate was what I said?

What----you mean when you asked the question about people who did not understand consent?

I didn't see any problem with your asking that, whatsoever----but, who KNOWS how the crybabies'll feel about it; you'll have to wait until one of 'em passes-through, and see if they say something.

Don't worry about how you come-across on here (PPR)----as long as you don't break the rules (main, plus PPR rules)----if somebody doesn't don their big boy / girl pants ("trousers" to you, maybe), and gets "sliced and diced", that's THEIR problem!!

Maybe, my most FAVORITE line in the PPR rules, is: "
Provided people don't get too out of hand this forum is given a wide scope for debate; which frankly is what the members themselves want here...".




_________________
White female; age 59; diagnosed Aspie.
I use caps for emphasis----I'm NOT angry or shouting. I use caps like others use italics, underline, or bold.
"What we know is a drop; what we don't know, is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)


Shahunshah
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,225
Location: NZ

08 Jan 2017, 5:15 am

I am starting to see what Rand Paul was saying when he said that liberals did not understand his people in Kentucky.



Shahunshah
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,225
Location: NZ

08 Jan 2017, 5:20 am

Campin_Cat wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Don't wanna beat a dead horse here. But just for the future how inappropriate was what I said?

What----you mean when you asked the question about people who did not understand consent?

I didn't see any problem with your asking that, whatsoever----but, who KNOWS how the crybabies'll feel about it; you'll have to wait until one of 'em passes-through, and see if they say something.

Don't worry about how you come-across on here (PPR)----as long as you don't break the rules (main, plus PPR rules)----if somebody doesn't don their big boy / girl pants ("trousers" to you, maybe), and gets "sliced and diced", that's THEIR problem!!

Maybe, my most FAVORITE line in the PPR rules, is: "
Provided people don't get too out of hand this forum is given a wide scope for debate; which frankly is what the members themselves want here...".
Thanks that was helpful.



Campin_Cat
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2014
Age: 64
Gender: Female
Posts: 25,953
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, U.S.A.

08 Jan 2017, 6:05 am

Shahunshah wrote:
I am starting to see what Rand Paul was saying when he said that liberals did not understand his people in Kentucky.

What----what do you see----what was he saying? Just curious.....








_________________
White female; age 59; diagnosed Aspie.
I use caps for emphasis----I'm NOT angry or shouting. I use caps like others use italics, underline, or bold.
"What we know is a drop; what we don't know, is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)


Campin_Cat
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2014
Age: 64
Gender: Female
Posts: 25,953
Location: Baltimore, Maryland, U.S.A.

08 Jan 2017, 6:07 am

Shahunshah wrote:
Thanks that was helpful.

Are you being sarcastic? Just checkin'.....








_________________
White female; age 59; diagnosed Aspie.
I use caps for emphasis----I'm NOT angry or shouting. I use caps like others use italics, underline, or bold.
"What we know is a drop; what we don't know, is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)


Biscuitman
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Mar 2013
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,674
Location: Dunking jammy dodgers

08 Jan 2017, 6:20 am

feral botanist wrote:
When men, particularly white men claim to be oppressed, I can not help but laugh. Those poor men have is so tough.


When someone dismisses a whole section of society they are also giving a green light for other people to dismiss other sections of society.



TheSpectrum
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Jun 2014
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,121
Location: Hampshire

08 Jan 2017, 6:36 am

Biscuitman wrote:
feral botanist wrote:
When men, particularly white men claim to be oppressed, I can not help but laugh. Those poor men have is so tough.


When someone dismisses a whole section of society they are also giving a green light for other people to dismiss other sections of society.

Indeed, Mr. Biscuit.

Image


_________________
Yours sincerely, some dude.