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Shahunshah
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05 Feb 2017, 4:17 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
What do you think are the intentions of the Neo-Nazis? Tell me ONE good intention!! !

Nobody has the right to cold-cock a Nazi--but I certainty would feel the desire to do so in my mind. Their "ancestors" killer millions of people of many nationalities because of some notion of "Aryans" being superior or something.

This without Hitler, in any way, exhibiting "Aryan" characteristics.
If a Nazi believes Muslims should be sent out of Europe because they will harm Europeans doesn't that person have a good intention.



kraftiekortie
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05 Feb 2017, 4:31 pm

No. Because the vast majority have no intention of harming Europeans. They are escaping their oppressive homelands.

Moreover, there are quite a few Muslims who are European, and have been for centuries--especially in southeast Europe.



Shahunshah
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05 Feb 2017, 4:34 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
No. Because the vast majority have no intention of harming Europeans. They are escaping their oppressive homelands.

Moreover, there are quite a few Muslims who are European, and have been for centuries--especially in southeast Europe.
But that's what they really believe. If they think what they are doing is right than how do they lack a moral compass?



Shahunshah
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05 Feb 2017, 4:59 pm

I am not saying that what White supremacists believe isn't irrational I just don't think we should demonize them.

If you are spread a lie generation to generation you might well believe the lie is the truth and be convinced of it.

When that happens it won't necessarily be your fault.



kraftiekortie
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05 Feb 2017, 5:20 pm

Somebody who has a "moral compass" needs to read their history. And to change their notions if obvious evidence to the contrary is presented.

If somebody has an erroneous idea about, say, autistics, they need to be sent straight.

You wouldn't want somebody making assumptions about autistics that could land them, say, in concentration camps.



Shahunshah
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05 Feb 2017, 5:22 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Somebody who has a "moral compass" needs to read their history. And to change their notions if obvious evidence to the contrary is presented.

If somebody has an erroneous idea about, say, autistics, they need to be sent straight.

You wouldn't want somebody making assumptions about autistics that could land them, say, in concentration camps.
We got to fight prejudice.

Not with hate and thinking their awful human beings.



kraftiekortie
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05 Feb 2017, 5:29 pm

I do believe in rational dialogue with anyone of whatever political ideology.



Shahunshah
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05 Feb 2017, 5:44 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I do believe in rational dialogue with anyone of whatever political ideology.

Well guess what some people are irrational it doesnt make them bad people it is just who they are. They live in their own worlds we cant change them.



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05 Feb 2017, 6:54 pm

Sure we can.....there are many stories of people who were Neo-Nazis who disavowed their beliefs. Much of this had to do with going out in the world and actually meeting all sorts of people.



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05 Feb 2017, 6:57 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Sure we can.....there are many stories of people who were Neo-Nazis who disavowed their beliefs. Much of this had to do with going out in the world and actually meeting all sorts of people.
Many Neo-Nazis do however have a closed mentality, it comes from them being convinced that what they believe is the unquestionable truth.



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05 Feb 2017, 8:19 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
lidsmichelle wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
lidsmichelle wrote:
Onyxaxe wrote:
I'm black so I'm glad he got punched. Nazis expect to be able to walk around proudly while wanting to exterminate an entire race that their ancestors brought over against their will. Add to that their supremacy is genetically unfounded as most Nazis have mixed lineage just like everyone else. Expecting us to be happy about being shot down in the streets while condemning all violence is asinine. This is a result of the surmounting turmoil of American racism and Xenophobia that everyone but minorities and their loved ones are afraid or unwilling to address. History repeats itself, if everyone wants to candy coat Nazis instead of tell them they don't belong we are going to have another Civil War.

A lot of the people who defend Richard Spencer that I've talked to irl are people who claim that police brutality is justified. You'll show them a case where it is completely inarguable that the victim was unarmed and not being violent or showing any form of resistance (not that either are justification for killing people anyways, as police are supposed to be trained to non violently de-escalate violent situations), and they'll still say it was justified.

Shoot an unarmed black man? Justified. Punch a literal neo Nazi in the face? You're a terrible meanie and there's no justification for violence.


What if the unarmed black man is a criminal? Maybe he has some nasty views and calls women "hoes" and "b*****s"? Maybe he supports the Black Panthers?

What about if shooting an unarmed black person is wrong and punching a 'neo Nazi' in the face for no reason is also wrong? Anyone who justifies either is the one with the problem.

Research the black Panthers before speaking about them. The FBI purposely destroyed them and smeared their name after killing their key leaders. The Black Panthers provided a lot of very important services to the black community. Don't speak of what you don't understand.

Calling women derogatory names is also not on the same level as supporting ethnic cleansing. It's misogynistic but not murderous. Being a criminal is not justifiable for police to shoot you. They are taught to non violently de-escalate.


Says something about the Alt Right, that they defend the killing of an unarmed black man just because he might have called women names, or had supported radical (or not so radical) black groups. But getting fed up with a Nazi a$$hole, and throwing a punch, oh that's so terrible! :roll:


Not sure who coerces you to use these labels. I'm not alt right whatever that means.
You should win a gold medal in mental gymnastics though. I did nothing of the sort. Asking questions to test someone doesn't mean you hold those views.


You are on a forum full of Aspies, who take everything at face value. Seriously, as one of us, you ought to know that I will assume you hold the views you're trying to test me with. I take someone's rhetoric to be a reflection of who they are.


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05 Feb 2017, 8:29 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Onyxaxe wrote:
I'm black so I'm glad he got punched. Nazis expect to be able to walk around proudly while wanting to exterminate an entire race that their ancestors brought over against their will. Add to that their supremacy is genetically unfounded as most Nazis have mixed lineage just like everyone else. Expecting us to be happy about being shot down in the streets while condemning all violence is asinine. This is a result of the surmounting turmoil of American racism and Xenophobia that everyone but minorities and their loved ones are afraid or unwilling to address. History repeats itself, if everyone wants to candy coat Nazis instead of tell them they don't belong we are going to have another Civil War.


The word "Nazi" gets thrown around too easily now. Just because someone is a white nationalist it doesn't mean they want to start putting people in concentration camps.


No, it means they want to deport all non-white people.
Are you aware that you sound like you're defending white nationalists?


You just defended blowing up innocent people on the other thread, so you probably ought to think before you type. So some people have the view that they want to deport all white people, yet your government and you have been supporting racial colonies in Palestine for 50 years. What's worse?
I'm defending everyone's right not to be attacked for their views. And duh, white people are allowed to be nationalists.


I defend bombing people who want to murder us - - not exactly innocent lambs.
And who seriously wants to deport white people? Two or three insanos? There are a lot more white nationalists who want to rid America of brown and black people.
I'm not going to get derailed with your Anti-Israeli notions.
And yes, people have the right to be something as deplorable as a white nationalist, but that doesn't mean the rest of us who know America's destiny lies with being a pluralistic society have to accept your Alti Right White Nationalist ideology.


There's zero evidence that they wanted to murder anyone. Amazing how your double standards work. You realise the 'suspects' were at a barbecue or funeral and the other innocent people around them were blown up? I guess Arabs are all terrorists in your eyes though. Unless Trump is banning them. Wait, you're pro Israel?

You support racial apartheid, ethnic cleansing and mass murder so don't lecture me about nationalism. How many people has that Spencer guy killed? You support and vote for mass murderers.


I'm talking about real terrorists, not accidental victims.
And no, not all Arabs are terrorists in my eyes. In fact, Arabs suffer more at the hands of terrorists than we or the Israelis do.
No, I don't support racial apartheid or ethnic cleansing. And as that stuff is I presume a reference to Israel, how am I defending any sort of nationalism even if I did support all that? I'm an American, not an Israeli.
Spencer hasn't killed anyone... yet. He definitely wants an America where all non-whites are expelled. As no one is going to give up their homes here in America, Spencer and his friends would doubtlessly respond with violence and murder if they ever got their way.
And as I recall, you had seemingly defended white nationalists. Why on earth would anyone do that, unless they're sympathetic to said nationalists' views?


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05 Feb 2017, 8:45 pm

Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
In hindsight I probably would have supported Jim Webb the person looked promising.


While I don't like Webb's stance on gays in the military, I still like what I know of his other positions.

I agree with you on that. I like that fact he is a bit more conservatively minded and sees the other side. But that has its downsides.

Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
I don't think that poor people are to blame at all, Black, Immigrant, White or Hispanic.

But I am sick of the demonization we give to these people. Every single demagogue in history including Trump rode on people's anger at their inequality. Until we correct this the cycle will continue and continue. We can go on and on about how these people's beliefs are deplorable but until we look them in the face and help them nothing will change.

So let's reach out to these people they aren't all bad. I once read about a Stormfront person who gave support to their wife who was depressed and suicidal. This person likely had empathy. We have to see what is beneath.


While that is commendable, would that same Stormfront member do the same for a racial or sexual minority?
Probably not. But that is not because the guy lacks empathy it is because of the fact that he views another minority as evil. This person still wants to do good.

Jesus I think I am getting emotional in this.


His viewing someone else as evil simply for belonging to a minority group is indefensibly wrong.
It is. I am not saying that it isn't I am saying it doesn't make him a bad person. He is doing what he thinks is right.


I don't believe right comes into the equation for those people. Rather, it's all about feeding their hate and prejudice. Right and wrong doesn't come into the picture for them.
Yes it does just look at what those people say. They genuinely believe that Muslims are coming to Europe to destroy it and don't want to see it happen. I am sick of us generalizing the people of Stormfront they are people like us that deserve to be treated with respect.

You want to end discrimination the way to do it is by giving support to the people of West Virginia, Kentucky and Mississippi, it will eliminate the fundamental level of anger that leads to resentment against different peoples. If we don't do this than all hell could break loose, this is after all how Hitler came to power. The German people were angry over their inequality and with it those who they perceived as having had more.

I can't guarantee this will make most people change. But it will end the vicious cycle of hatred as their children will become less dissatisfied with the system and the anger will not get passed on.


Hey, I'm all for helping all people. But the majority of people in the south east are convinced that they should vote against their own economic interest by opposing a minimum wage hike, and keeping out organized labor. The white population of Mississippi, Alabama, Kentucky, and all the rest need to take the first step toward self empowerment, instead of allowing themselves to be distracted by hot button issues like opposing gay marriage or teaching evolution in public schools, and believing that the liberals who support such things are evil. That, and there is definitely a racial factor in this, as the right and left in the south tend to be divided by race. White southerners need to stop this tribalism of us vs them, and need to stop believing that allowing blacks to have a piece of the pie diminishes the piece going to whites. And no, I don't believe all white southerners are racist, but they do seem to be more easily manipulated when the issue of race is brought up.


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Shahunshah
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05 Feb 2017, 10:03 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
In hindsight I probably would have supported Jim Webb the person looked promising.


While I don't like Webb's stance on gays in the military, I still like what I know of his other positions.

I agree with you on that. I like that fact he is a bit more conservatively minded and sees the other side. But that has its downsides.

Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
I don't think that poor people are to blame at all, Black, Immigrant, White or Hispanic.

But I am sick of the demonization we give to these people. Every single demagogue in history including Trump rode on people's anger at their inequality. Until we correct this the cycle will continue and continue. We can go on and on about how these people's beliefs are deplorable but until we look them in the face and help them nothing will change.

So let's reach out to these people they aren't all bad. I once read about a Stormfront person who gave support to their wife who was depressed and suicidal. This person likely had empathy. We have to see what is beneath.


While that is commendable, would that same Stormfront member do the same for a racial or sexual minority?
Probably not. But that is not because the guy lacks empathy it is because of the fact that he views another minority as evil. This person still wants to do good.

Jesus I think I am getting emotional in this.


His viewing someone else as evil simply for belonging to a minority group is indefensibly wrong.
It is. I am not saying that it isn't I am saying it doesn't make him a bad person. He is doing what he thinks is right.


I don't believe right comes into the equation for those people. Rather, it's all about feeding their hate and prejudice. Right and wrong doesn't come into the picture for them.
Yes it does just look at what those people say. They genuinely believe that Muslims are coming to Europe to destroy it and don't want to see it happen. I am sick of us generalizing the people of Stormfront they are people like us that deserve to be treated with respect.

You want to end discrimination the way to do it is by giving support to the people of West Virginia, Kentucky and Mississippi, it will eliminate the fundamental level of anger that leads to resentment against different peoples. If we don't do this than all hell could break loose, this is after all how Hitler came to power. The German people were angry over their inequality and with it those who they perceived as having had more.

I can't guarantee this will make most people change. But it will end the vicious cycle of hatred as their children will become less dissatisfied with the system and the anger will not get passed on.


Hey, I'm all for helping all people. But the majority of people in the south east are convinced that they should vote against their own economic interest by opposing a minimum wage hike, and keeping out organized labor. The white population of Mississippi, Alabama, Kentucky, and all the rest need to take the first step toward self empowerment, instead of allowing themselves to be distracted by hot button issues like opposing gay marriage or teaching evolution in public schools, and believing that the liberals who support such things are evil. That, and there is definitely a racial factor in this, as the right and left in the south tend to be divided by race. White southerners need to stop this tribalism of us vs them, and need to stop believing that allowing blacks to have a piece of the pie diminishes the piece going to whites. And no, I don't believe all white southerners are racist, but they do seem to be more easily manipulated when the issue of race is brought up.


I wouldn't totally say that. Democrats like Bill Clinton almost won over them as an entire demographic back in the 90s heck even Michael Dukakis received a fair bit of support from them in 1988 and he is extremely liberal. To be honest if I was a coal miner in Kentucky or West Virginia worried about my family's future I would have voted for Donald Trump. Hillary Clinton wanted to regulate the coal industry and if I was a guy worried about my family's future I would have been immensely worried.



Kraichgauer
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05 Feb 2017, 10:34 pm

Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
In hindsight I probably would have supported Jim Webb the person looked promising.


While I don't like Webb's stance on gays in the military, I still like what I know of his other positions.

I agree with you on that. I like that fact he is a bit more conservatively minded and sees the other side. But that has its downsides.

Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
I don't think that poor people are to blame at all, Black, Immigrant, White or Hispanic.

But I am sick of the demonization we give to these people. Every single demagogue in history including Trump rode on people's anger at their inequality. Until we correct this the cycle will continue and continue. We can go on and on about how these people's beliefs are deplorable but until we look them in the face and help them nothing will change.

So let's reach out to these people they aren't all bad. I once read about a Stormfront person who gave support to their wife who was depressed and suicidal. This person likely had empathy. We have to see what is beneath.


While that is commendable, would that same Stormfront member do the same for a racial or sexual minority?
Probably not. But that is not because the guy lacks empathy it is because of the fact that he views another minority as evil. This person still wants to do good.

Jesus I think I am getting emotional in this.


His viewing someone else as evil simply for belonging to a minority group is indefensibly wrong.
It is. I am not saying that it isn't I am saying it doesn't make him a bad person. He is doing what he thinks is right.


I don't believe right comes into the equation for those people. Rather, it's all about feeding their hate and prejudice. Right and wrong doesn't come into the picture for them.
Yes it does just look at what those people say. They genuinely believe that Muslims are coming to Europe to destroy it and don't want to see it happen. I am sick of us generalizing the people of Stormfront they are people like us that deserve to be treated with respect.

You want to end discrimination the way to do it is by giving support to the people of West Virginia, Kentucky and Mississippi, it will eliminate the fundamental level of anger that leads to resentment against different peoples. If we don't do this than all hell could break loose, this is after all how Hitler came to power. The German people were angry over their inequality and with it those who they perceived as having had more.

I can't guarantee this will make most people change. But it will end the vicious cycle of hatred as their children will become less dissatisfied with the system and the anger will not get passed on.


Hey, I'm all for helping all people. But the majority of people in the south east are convinced that they should vote against their own economic interest by opposing a minimum wage hike, and keeping out organized labor. The white population of Mississippi, Alabama, Kentucky, and all the rest need to take the first step toward self empowerment, instead of allowing themselves to be distracted by hot button issues like opposing gay marriage or teaching evolution in public schools, and believing that the liberals who support such things are evil. That, and there is definitely a racial factor in this, as the right and left in the south tend to be divided by race. White southerners need to stop this tribalism of us vs them, and need to stop believing that allowing blacks to have a piece of the pie diminishes the piece going to whites. And no, I don't believe all white southerners are racist, but they do seem to be more easily manipulated when the issue of race is brought up.


I wouldn't totally say that. Democrats like Bill Clinton almost won over them as an entire demographic back in the 90s heck even Michael Dukakis received a fair bit of support from them in 1988 and he is extremely liberal. To be honest if I was a coal miner in Kentucky or West Virginia worried about my family's future I would have voted for Donald Trump. Hillary Clinton wanted to regulate the coal industry and if I was a guy worried about my family's future I would have been immensely worried.


Coal mining must be the worst job in the world, with threat of dying in a cave-in, or from black lung disease, or being worked to death by anti-union mine owners. In fact, there are more people employed in the solar industry than in the coal industry. If I was a coal miner, I'd welcome the possibility of new income with a new industry for the future.


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Shahunshah
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05 Feb 2017, 10:36 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
In hindsight I probably would have supported Jim Webb the person looked promising.


While I don't like Webb's stance on gays in the military, I still like what I know of his other positions.

I agree with you on that. I like that fact he is a bit more conservatively minded and sees the other side. But that has its downsides.

Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
I don't think that poor people are to blame at all, Black, Immigrant, White or Hispanic.

But I am sick of the demonization we give to these people. Every single demagogue in history including Trump rode on people's anger at their inequality. Until we correct this the cycle will continue and continue. We can go on and on about how these people's beliefs are deplorable but until we look them in the face and help them nothing will change.

So let's reach out to these people they aren't all bad. I once read about a Stormfront person who gave support to their wife who was depressed and suicidal. This person likely had empathy. We have to see what is beneath.


While that is commendable, would that same Stormfront member do the same for a racial or sexual minority?
Probably not. But that is not because the guy lacks empathy it is because of the fact that he views another minority as evil. This person still wants to do good.

Jesus I think I am getting emotional in this.


His viewing someone else as evil simply for belonging to a minority group is indefensibly wrong.
It is. I am not saying that it isn't I am saying it doesn't make him a bad person. He is doing what he thinks is right.


I don't believe right comes into the equation for those people. Rather, it's all about feeding their hate and prejudice. Right and wrong doesn't come into the picture for them.
Yes it does just look at what those people say. They genuinely believe that Muslims are coming to Europe to destroy it and don't want to see it happen. I am sick of us generalizing the people of Stormfront they are people like us that deserve to be treated with respect.

You want to end discrimination the way to do it is by giving support to the people of West Virginia, Kentucky and Mississippi, it will eliminate the fundamental level of anger that leads to resentment against different peoples. If we don't do this than all hell could break loose, this is after all how Hitler came to power. The German people were angry over their inequality and with it those who they perceived as having had more.

I can't guarantee this will make most people change. But it will end the vicious cycle of hatred as their children will become less dissatisfied with the system and the anger will not get passed on.


Hey, I'm all for helping all people. But the majority of people in the south east are convinced that they should vote against their own economic interest by opposing a minimum wage hike, and keeping out organized labor. The white population of Mississippi, Alabama, Kentucky, and all the rest need to take the first step toward self empowerment, instead of allowing themselves to be distracted by hot button issues like opposing gay marriage or teaching evolution in public schools, and believing that the liberals who support such things are evil. That, and there is definitely a racial factor in this, as the right and left in the south tend to be divided by race. White southerners need to stop this tribalism of us vs them, and need to stop believing that allowing blacks to have a piece of the pie diminishes the piece going to whites. And no, I don't believe all white southerners are racist, but they do seem to be more easily manipulated when the issue of race is brought up.


I wouldn't totally say that. Democrats like Bill Clinton almost won over them as an entire demographic back in the 90s heck even Michael Dukakis received a fair bit of support from them in 1988 and he is extremely liberal. To be honest if I was a coal miner in Kentucky or West Virginia worried about my family's future I would have voted for Donald Trump. Hillary Clinton wanted to regulate the coal industry and if I was a guy worried about my family's future I would have been immensely worried.


Coal mining must be the worst job in the world, with threat of dying in a cave-in, or from black lung disease, or being worked to death by anti-union mine owners. In fact, there are more people employed in the solar industry than in the coal industry. If I was a coal miner, I'd welcome the possibility of new income with a new industry for the future.
The job pays reasonably well and in some of those states its the only way families can provide for themselves.