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Does anyone else agree with feminism?

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EXPECIALLY
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01 Mar 2012, 9:15 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
EXPECIALLY wrote:

Do you agree with treating men well in spite of their differences if it means that they will have perceived advantages over women in some areas, the way women have some advantages over men?

If you do, wonderful.

If not, you probably fit in well with the many feminists who employ this double standard and take pleasure in doing so, refusing to accept that they hold contradictory beliefs and priding themselves on being "independent thinkers" when confronted with such inconsistencies and shooting them down.


I have no interest in eliminating the natural differences between men and women, just like I have no interest in exaggerating them.

I'll reiterate what I said in a previous post: human rights don't mean anything unless they're universal.

There are a few female supremacists about, but most feminists regard them as completely insane. Your use of the phrase 'many feminists' suggests to me that you are building a straw woman here.


1. Wat. There are more than a few and I suspect you know it. I didn't even say most, which could be 51% and I would gauge "many" at 30-40%.

2. I haven't read all your posts and I am sincerely sorry if I unfairly grouped you in with those types.


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puddingmouse
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01 Mar 2012, 9:19 pm

EXPECIALLY wrote:

1. Wat. There are more than a few and I suspect you know it. I didn't even say most, which could be 51% and I would gauge "many" at 30-40%.



'Wat' indeed?!

I don't know if we're talking about the same feminist movement (you know, the one on planet Earth).

Sorry, I don't mean to be rude, I'm just genuinely like this: :?: 8O :?

Do you have any evidence for your assertion?


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EXPECIALLY
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01 Mar 2012, 9:40 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
EXPECIALLY wrote:

1. Wat. There are more than a few and I suspect you know it. I didn't even say most, which could be 51% and I would gauge "many" at 30-40%.



'Wat' indeed?!

I don't know if we're talking about the same feminist movement (you know, the one on planet Earth).

Sorry, I don't mean to be rude, I'm just genuinely like this: :?: 8O :?

Do you have any evidence for your assertion?


Do you have any evidence for yours?

All I've said to you is that there are "many" feminists who employ such double standards. Do you think people say it for no reason?

I don't know how one could prove how many feminists use these tactics but there's a reason these thoughts about feminists exist. My only suggestion is for to you to do some independent research on all of the nasty things people say about feminists, if I were a lesser person I'd throw them at you here. Do you think the people who say these things are saying them for absolutely no reason?

Or do you subscribe to the convenient explanation that these people are "afraid of feminism" , dismiss them, and label them as misogynists or uniformed, self-hating women?

To be perfectly honest I don't think the number is that low but I wouldn't go throwing the word "most' around expecting no consequences.

And again, if I am lumping you with people you're not similar to I'm sorry but it's hard to tell with your tone.


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01 Mar 2012, 9:44 pm

EXPECIALLY, you have provided a statistic that appears to have been generated out of thin air. if you make an assertion like that there is an expectation you will back it up with actual evidence. the onus is not on the people who are questioning the statement, the onus is on the person who made the original assertion.


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puddingmouse
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01 Mar 2012, 9:49 pm

EXPECIALLY wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
EXPECIALLY wrote:

1. Wat. There are more than a few and I suspect you know it. I didn't even say most, which could be 51% and I would gauge "many" at 30-40%.



'Wat' indeed?!

I don't know if we're talking about the same feminist movement (you know, the one on planet Earth).

Sorry, I don't mean to be rude, I'm just genuinely like this: :?: 8O :?

Do you have any evidence for your assertion?


Do you have any evidence for yours?

All I've said to you is that there are "many" feminists who employ such double standards. Do you think people say it for no reason?

I don't know how one could prove how many feminists use these tactics but there's a reason these thoughts about feminists exist. My only suggestion is for to you to do some independent research on all of the nasty things people say about feminists, if I were a lesser person I'd throw them at you here. Do you think the people who say these things are saying them for absolutely no reason?

Or do you subscribe to the convenient explanation that these people are "afraid of feminism" , dismiss them, and label them as misogynists or uniformed, self-hating women?

To be perfectly honest I don't think the number is that low but I wouldn't go throwing the word "most' around expecting no consequences.

And again, if I am lumping you with people you're not similar to I'm sorry but it's hard to tell with your tone.


No, there is a reason. The reason is because the media focuses on the more extreme fringe because it makes good cover. Those type of feminists really aren't numerous, but I have no way of proving that, either. My only evidence is that I've never met one of those 'feminazis' in real life, but I have met many, many antifeminists.

I never said you used to word 'most'. I said you used the word 'many' and then you gave a not insignificant estimate. This does not cohere to my personal experience.

As for the part I bolded, my opinions are what I say they are. I just get tired of all the straw women that strew this debate. I'm not defending misandrists, I'm just questioning assumptions about their numbers and influence in the feminist movement. As for my tone, sorry if you think I sound like one of 'those feminists', this is the way I write; I had no idea that my 'tone' was indicative of my ideology.

People are free to disagree with feminism as much as they like. I only dismiss someone as misogynist if they demonstrate clearly that they hate women (I've met very few people like this). My critique mainly centres around misogyny in culture and partriarchy. I don't have the energy or the inclination to take on individuals.

As for self-hating, I win trophies for that, but that's another matter. :lol:


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Last edited by puddingmouse on 01 Mar 2012, 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

EXPECIALLY
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01 Mar 2012, 9:56 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
EXPECIALLY, you have provided a statistic that appears to have been generated out of thin air. if you make an assertion like that there is an expectation you will back it up with actual evidence. the onus is not on the people who are questioning the statement, the onus is on the person who made the original assertion.


It's a statistic that can't be proven either way. So why is the information that doesn't support the feminist's side of the argument dismissed so quickly? It exists, doesn't it? Surely it must be "real".

I asked why so many people hold this view if it's based on absolutely nothing.

I suspect you'll tell me that it's because they're ignorant and uniformed, this argument has been going around for 40+ years.
If either side could "prove" anything this wouldn't still be happening.

TBH I'm sorry I got involved in this discussion, I never try to reason with people who've made it clear that they have a special interest in the discussion, I didn't realize that's where this thread was headed before.


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hyperlexian
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01 Mar 2012, 10:02 pm

but we didn't assert any specific statistic or percentage. i can speak from personal experience and state that i do not know any feminists who hold the views you mentioned. where did you get your ideas from?


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puddingmouse
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01 Mar 2012, 10:04 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
EXPECIALLY, you have provided a statistic that appears to have been generated out of thin air. if you make an assertion like that there is an expectation you will back it up with actual evidence. the onus is not on the people who are questioning the statement, the onus is on the person who made the original assertion.


Quote:
It's a statistic that can't be proven either way. So why is the information that doesn't support the feminist's side of the argument dismissed so quickly? It exists, doesn't it? Surely it must be "real".

I asked why so many people hold this view if it's based on absolutely nothing.


1. Where is this evidence?
2. Nobody claimed that it was based on absolutely nothing.

Quote:
I suspect you'll tell me that it's because they're ignorant and uniformed, this argument has been going around for 40+ years.


No, I wouldn't. I'm many things (including feminist), but a***hole isn't one of them. You suspect wrongly.

Quote:
If either side could "prove" anything this wouldn't still be happening.


What wouldn't still be happening? People having this debate? People have 'proven' the theory of evolution, but they still debate it.

Quote:
TBH I'm sorry I got involved in this discussion, I never try to reason with people who've made it clear that they have a special interest in the discussion, I didn't realize that's where this thread was headed before.


Fine. I think I'm being reasonable here, but if you think I'm incapable of that due to some inherent bias, you're entitled to think that about me. In other words, let's agree to disagree.


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EXPECIALLY
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01 Mar 2012, 10:14 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
EXPECIALLY, you have provided a statistic that appears to have been generated out of thin air. if you make an assertion like that there is an expectation you will back it up with actual evidence. the onus is not on the people who are questioning the statement, the onus is on the person who made the original assertion.


Quote:
It's a statistic that can't be proven either way. So why is the information that doesn't support the feminist's side of the argument dismissed so quickly? It exists, doesn't it? Surely it must be "real".

I asked why so many people hold this view if it's based on absolutely nothing.


1. Where is this evidence?

I can't tell you that I really believe you'd have hard time coming into contact with all of the anti-feminist chatter out there. As for the term evidence, I think you know that either side can't be proven "right" so asking for evidence sets you up for a victory that you'll earn under false pretenses.

Some of it has occurred in this very thread, otherwise you can access that same you access any other kind of information.

2. Nobody claimed that it was based on absolutely nothing. You didn't use those words, I'm sorry. did you imply that it was ridiculous assumption? Yes.

puddingmouse wrote:
Wat' indeed?!

I don't know if we're talking about the same feminist movement (you know, the one on planet Earth).

Sorry, I don't mean to be rude, I'm just genuinely like this: Question Shocked Confused

Do you have any evidence for your assertion?


Quote:
I suspect you'll tell me that it's because they're ignorant and uniformed, this argument has been going around for 40+ years.


No, I wouldn't. I'm many things (including feminist), but a***hole isn't one of them. You suspect wrongly.

Quote:
If either side could "prove" anything this wouldn't still be happening.


What wouldn't still be happening? People having this debate? People have 'proven' the theory of evolution, but they still debate it.o

So are you saying one side has been proven wrong? Or that they never will be? My point was that the debate isn't going to end.

Quote:
TBH I'm sorry I got involved in this discussion, I never try to reason with people who've made it clear that they have a special interest in the discussion, I didn't realize that's where this thread was headed before.


Fine. I think I'm being reasonable here, but if you think I'm incapable of that due to some inherent bias, you're entitled to think that about me. In other words, let's agree to disagree.


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puddingmouse
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01 Mar 2012, 10:19 pm

EXPECIALLY wrote:

I can't tell you that I really believe you'd have hard time coming into contact with all of the anti-feminist chatter out there.

Some of it has occurred in this very thread, otherwise you can access that same you access any other kind of information.


I've come across endless amounts of antifeminist chatter. What I've not come across is real life of examples of feminists to provide a basis for such chatter.

There are some valid criticisms of feminism, yes, and I engage with those where I encounter them. If something has no evidence to support it, though, I'm being reasonable if I dismiss it.


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EXPECIALLY
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01 Mar 2012, 10:32 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
EXPECIALLY wrote:

I can't tell you that I really believe you'd have hard time coming into contact with all of the anti-feminist chatter out there.

Some of it has occurred in this very thread, otherwise you can access that same you access any other kind of information.


I've come across endless amounts of antifeminist chatter. What I've not come across is real life of examples of feminists to provide a basis for such chatter.

There are some valid criticisms of feminism, yes, and I engage with those where I encounter them. If something has no evidence to support it, though, I'm being reasonable if I dismiss it.


Ok then. What I said earlier was that you have an explanation for that and don't believe that any of it's based on fact.

Why is it that the same arguments and criticisms of feminism that have been going around since before both of our times are not considered "evidence" of these viewpoints, while arguments that support feminism aren't neglected when their factual inconsistencies are pointed out?


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01 Mar 2012, 10:36 pm

EXPECIALLY wrote:

Why is it that the same arguments and criticisms of feminism that have been going around since before both of our times are not considered "evidence" of these viewpoints, while arguments that support feminism aren't neglected when their factual inconsistencies are pointed out?


Could you be more specific? Which arguments do you think I'm dismissing (the age of them has no effect on their veracity, btw)? Which factual inconsistencies do you think I'm ignoring?


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01 Mar 2012, 10:39 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
EXPECIALLY wrote:

Why is it that the same arguments and criticisms of feminism that have been going around since before both of our times are not considered "evidence" of these viewpoints, while arguments that support feminism aren't neglected when their factual inconsistencies are pointed out?


Could you be more specific? Which arguments do you think I'm dismissing (the age of them has no effect on their veracity, btw)? Which factual inconsistencies do you think I'm ignoring?


We haven't even discussed any, I'm asking you a random question.

It's most likely happened half a dozen times in this thread.


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01 Mar 2012, 10:42 pm

^

I'll take that as a 'no - we can't be more specific'.

Lets just drop this. I'd be happy to take this discussion up again when we actually have something to discuss.


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02 Mar 2012, 1:06 am

<3 @ puddingmouse & hyperlexian :)



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02 Mar 2012, 3:05 pm

godoftruemercy wrote:

There actually are no matriarchal cultures (that we've found.) Men are bigger, after all.


So some anthropologists say, but I really think they are ignoring evidence in the name of being politically correct. From Wikipedia:

Some anthropologists and authors hold that there are no known societies that are unambiguously matriarchal,[1][2][3][4][5][6] but possible exceptions include the Iroquois, in whose society mothers exercise central moral and political roles.[7] There are also matrilinear, matrilocal, and avunculocal societies, especially among indigenous peoples of Asia and Africa,[8] such as those of the Minangkabau, E De (Rhade), Mosuo, Berbers and Tuareg and, in Europe, e.g., Sardinian people.[9][10]