Florida, where murder is legal

Page 16 of 25 [ 397 posts ] Go to page Previous 1 ... 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 ... 25 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

26 Mar 2012, 7:38 pm

Dox47 wrote:

WilliamWDelaney wrote:

Well, this goes back to my old drum beat.

There will be law. Whether it is by civilized government or otherwise is all that varies. If you take away the government, debt collectors would have no compunction with taking what you owe them by force and intimidation. If you take away the government, you will pay "protection money" to local thugs instead of the government. If you live around other people, you will be governed. Whether you are governed in a civilized manner or an utterly barbaric manner are your alternatives.

If the government is not inclined to charge Zimmerman with a crime and take him to trial, someone else will. However, angry mobs don't usually give you a fair hearing. Angry mobs do not allow you to be tried by a jury of your peers. Angry mobs do not offer a minimum sentence. Without the government, you live under mob law, and mob law is not compassionate or civilized. Mob law is nothing but an endless string of miserable blood feuds.

If you are lucky, you get to live under the law of an organized mafia or a group of maniacal (yet sometimes compassionate and helpful) religious zealots. Those are your only realistic alternatives to either civilized government or mob rule.

But there will be law.

So, am I to take it from this along with your "Hang 'em High!" comment that you're endorsing vigilante actions when not all the facts are in and there are still a ton of unknown factors? I could go further and ask if you and the NBPP (and Spike Lee apparently) are calling for a lynching, but that would seem a bit hyperbolic, which I try and avoid for the most part.

Actually, the New Black Panther Party is offering a reward for Zimmerman's arrest - all four or five members.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

sliqua-jcooter
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,488
Location: Burke, Virginia, USA

26 Mar 2012, 8:04 pm

abacacus wrote:

Ancalagon wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

A tap! Talk about euphimism! A bullet ripping through the body is NOT a tap. What would you call an arrow into the the chest cavity? Making nice?

A soft, warm, gentle love caress, of course. :lol:

Arrows are substantially more painful than bullets. Bullets either go straight through or stop and tend to be fairly lightweight.

An arrow makes a nice gaping hole in your body (much larger contact area) and then lodges there, and any slight movement of the shaft will cause intense pain from the arrow head shifting about.

Wonderful things for putting someone down in a hurry if your a good shot and don't mind if they yell.

Well, *that's* certainly not creepy...

_________________
Nothing posted here should be construed as the opinion or position of my company, or an official position of WrongPlanet in any way, unless specifically mentioned.

Dox47
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 28 Jan 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,670
Location: Seattle-ish

26 Mar 2012, 8:23 pm

I'd rather take an arrow than a bullet any day, even in the knee. Arrows don't pack hydrostatic shock like bullets, they only damage what they strike directly. These are the kinds of things you learn when you study terminal ballistics... ; )

_________________
Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer.

- Rick Sanchez

sliqua-jcooter
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,488
Location: Burke, Virginia, USA

26 Mar 2012, 8:25 pm

Dox47 wrote:

OK - so lets leave the bullets vs arrows discussion to another thread, as it's completely irrelevant to the discussion in every way.

_________________
Nothing posted here should be construed as the opinion or position of my company, or an official position of WrongPlanet in any way, unless specifically mentioned.

OliveOilMom
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Nov 2011
Age: 62
Gender: Female
Posts: 11,447
Location: About 50 miles past the middle of nowhere

26 Mar 2012, 9:40 pm

sliqua-jcooter wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

OK - so lets leave the bullets vs arrows discussion to another thread, as it's completely irrelevant to the discussion in every way.

Not to Cupid ;-)

_________________
I'm giving it another shot. We will see.
My forum is still there and everyone is welcome to come join as well. There is a private women only subforum there if anyone is interested. Also, there is no CAPTCHA. ;-)

The link to the forum is http://www.rightplanet.proboards.com

abacacus
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,380

26 Mar 2012, 9:59 pm

sliqua-jcooter wrote:

Well, *that's* certainly not creepy...

Knowledge is power.

Also, while they are VERY painful, arrow wounds aren't lethal as often as gunshot wounds are. Less velocity. Unless you hit the stomach, throat, or a major organ they'll survive.

_________________
A shot gun blast into the face of deceit
You'll gain your just reward.
We'll not rest until the purge is complete
You will reap what you've sown.

Cornflake
Administrator

Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 73,344
Location: Over there

26 Mar 2012, 10:15 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Cornflake wrote:

^^ *nods*

Just to follow up (since my dander is up), as a UK citizen you may recall that you lost your own gun rights one tragedy at a time. Every single major restriction came on the heels of some tragic shooting, with emotional appeals being used to override people's normal considerations and thought process.

Yes, that's true enough and I do remember the (largely justified, I believed) howls of protest at the repercussions from the Dunblane school massacre in 1996 and earlier, from Hungerford in 1987.
Our keepers tend to play the same game with almost anything serious enough to make a bandwaggon from to help garner a few votes or win tabloid newspaper support. Actual and worthwhile benefits from this nonsense rarely materialise; usually it's just more restrictive legislation where it wasn't required in the first place.

('scuse delay: my WP thread update alerts all failed and I wandered off to do something else)

_________________
Giraffe: a ruminant with a view.

LKL
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 50
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

26 Mar 2012, 11:11 pm

PM wrote:

LKL wrote:

a young man ws recently brought into my ED after having been shot by the local PD. I didn't see this one myself, but the RN/MICN who helped the EMTs when he first arrived described him as being 'slick with pepper spray, with multiple sets of tazer prongs, and one gunshot to the chest.' He arrived in a pool of blood (the transport guerneys are somewhat concave) and essentially already dead.

Did the RN give anymore details than that? For all she knew, the guy could have been under the influence of PCP.

I got more of an impression of 'suicide by cop.' It was totally a legitimate shooting - I didn't bring it up to compare it to Trayvon's murder, but to point out that even the police don't necessarily unload on someone with a gun as their first, second, or third options.

LKL
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 50
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

26 Mar 2012, 11:27 pm

abacacus wrote:

Ancalagon wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

A tap! Talk about euphimism! A bullet ripping through the body is NOT a tap. What would you call an arrow into the the chest cavity? Making nice?

A soft, warm, gentle love caress, of course. :lol:

You are not correct. A large part of the damage done by a bullet is the shredding of tissue caused by the shockwave of the bullet passing through the body. In my (admittedly limited) experience, a bullet generally does not make a bullet-size hole.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballistic_trauma

edit: already covered by Dox and Abacus.

Tadzio
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 2 Sep 2009
Age: 74
Gender: Male
Posts: 877

27 Mar 2012, 12:06 am

sliqua-jcooter wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

OK - so lets leave the bullets vs arrows discussion to another thread, as it's completely irrelevant to the discussion in every way.

Hi sliqua-jcooter,

A creepy aspect to the preamble of SYG is the "we the inside people" versus "those outside people", with the inhospitality and brutal acts to be committed against "outsiders", with otherwise self-righteous immunity, as if the "inside" communities involved were Sodom & Gomorrah. So I wonder if the NRA & Trendies are ready for another manifestation of plagues or an abrupt event or two. Maybe that's why the GOP had the dead NRA Heston pretend Moses eerily sorta switch sides the last election: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mopkn0lPzM8[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mopkn0lPzM8[/youtube]

"The Right Not To Stand Trial" is at the end of the paragraph:

High Citizens Of The Cities On The Plain? wrote:

In 2005, the Florida Legislature passed a statute granting immunity under certain conditions of self-defense. The law reads, “[a] person who uses force as permitted in s. 776.012, s. 776.013, or s. 776.031 is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force.” § 776.032, Fla. Stat. (2006). The preamble to the legislation declares, “it is proper for law-abiding people to protect themselves, their families, and others from intruders and attackers without fear of prosecution or civil action.” Ch. 2005-27, at 200, Laws of Fla. (emphasis added). As the first district wrote, “[t]he wording selected by our Legislature makes clear that it intended to establish a true immunity and not merely an affirmative defense.” Peterson, 983 So.2d at 29. The essence of true immunity means that a person entitled to it should not have to face prosecution at all. Where it applies, this type of immunity means that a defendant has a right not to stand trial.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/fl-district- ... 83559.html

The "ON REMAND FROM THE SUPREME COURT OF FLORIDA" is at:
http://www.4dca.org/opinions/Aug%202011 ... 371.op.pdf

The case, in hindsight at least, was foreboding:

HAZOURI and DAMOORGIAN, JJ., concur.GROSS, C.J., concurs specially with opinion.GROSS, C.J., HAZOURI and DAMOORGIAN, JJ., concur. wrote:

Govoni is a retiree with no criminal past who lives in a residential community in Boca Raton. He is the president and authorized agent of the community association.

Govoni has been charged with five counts of aggravated assault with a firearm and improper exhibition of a dangerous weapon. The charges arose out of Govoni's encounter with five young men. Govoni says he held his “unloaded gun in his hand” to protect himself from “dope smoking trespassers.” Relying on the statements of the victims, the state's version casts Govoni in a different light.

Govoni filed a rule 3.190(c)(4) motion to dismiss based on section 776.032. The state filed a traverse and argued that there were disputed factual issues as to whether there could be a reasonable belief that Govoni's use of force was necessary under the circumstances. See § 776.031, Fla. Stat. (2008).

In the present case, the dead victim issued no statement, and the previous canon of Western Law involving evidence & the to be assumed testimonies as if surviving for evidences from victims has been abolished by the Neo-Fascists under the banner of Neo-Conservatives.

Tadzio

See the SelectedWorks of Elizabeth B. Megale, April 2010
"Making Murder Legal: How Laws Expanding Self-Defense Allow Criminals to 'Get Away with Murder'":
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=c ... +Torres%22

Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

27 Mar 2012, 12:21 am

Having been born in, and living in the western United Sates, I can tell you, where there was law enforcement, an effort would be made to apprehend and arrest any shooter in Old West times. It is true, a great number of defendants were acquitted by overly lenient juries on the judgement of self defense. A case in point, here in Spokane, the co-owner of a hotel had ejected a drunk from the premises, then drew his gun and shot - - a passerby. And yet, the idiot jury let him go on grounds of self defense. The notion that shooters should be immune from prosecution, even if they are legitimately defending their family and property, is even more inane than justice had often been in the 19th century in my part of the country.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

abacacus
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Apr 2007
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,380

27 Mar 2012, 1:10 am

LKL wrote:

Exit wounds are much larger, entry wounds not so much unless you're using some kind of expanding or explosive round.

_________________
A shot gun blast into the face of deceit
You'll gain your just reward.
We'll not rest until the purge is complete
You will reap what you've sown.

sliqua-jcooter
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,488
Location: Burke, Virginia, USA

27 Mar 2012, 2:34 am

Tadzio wrote:

sliqua-jcooter wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

OK - so lets leave the bullets vs arrows discussion to another thread, as it's completely irrelevant to the discussion in every way.

High Citizens Of The Cities On The Plain? wrote:

HAZOURI and DAMOORGIAN, JJ., concur.GROSS, C.J., concurs specially with opinion.GROSS, C.J., HAZOURI and DAMOORGIAN, JJ., concur. wrote:

Other than that bit about the preamble to the SYG law (I don't understand what you're referencing specifically), which I assume is tangential to the larger point, I absolutely agree with this. Full post to follow.

_________________
Nothing posted here should be construed as the opinion or position of my company, or an official position of WrongPlanet in any way, unless specifically mentioned.

puddingmouse
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Age: 39
Gender: Female
Posts: 8,777
Location: Cottonopolis

27 Mar 2012, 2:44 am

Cornflake wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

Cornflake wrote:

^^ *nods*

Are you really that bothered about not being able to own a handgun, though? I know I'm not.

I know I'm supposed to care and be outraged at the erosion of my 'rights'...but I actually can't bring myself to care in the slightest. And yes, I live in 'da ghetto'.

_________________
Zombies, zombies will tear us apart...again.

sliqua-jcooter
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Jan 2010
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,488
Location: Burke, Virginia, USA

27 Mar 2012, 2:50 am

OK, so - as my understanding of both the incident in question, and the relevant law has evolved, I've come to several realizations that have changed my opinion on several issues.

First of all, with regards to the specific incident with Zimmerman, I can no longer definitively state that I believe Zimmerman was in the wrong here. The longer this goes on, the more facts seem to come trickling out that seem to support the notion that Zimmerman acted in self-defense. Having said that, the media has done a fantastic job of blurring the line between fact and rumor to the point that it's no longer possible to clearly tell the difference.

Secondly, while I still wholeheartedly support the legal theory of "stand your ground" and the Castle Doctrine, the implementation of the immunity from prosecution statute in Florida and other states is so misguided, it's really quite difficult to overstate the destructiveness of this statute to the US legal system as a whole.

The OP of this thread may have been attempting to sensationalize their point in their choice in subjects for the topic - but the reality of the situation really isn't that far off from what they describe - it is indeed possible to murder someone then claim self defense, and barring physical evidence to the contrary (forensics, surveillance camera, etc), actually get away with it. Not just possible, but rather trivial.

As someone who carries a gun to protect myself from *exactly* this kind of occurrence, I must say that I'm rather offended that such a heinous law be passed in the name of my protection. I am going to urge everyone I know that legally carries a weapon to take a good long look at the ramifications of this law, and work to get it repealed in every state that it's passed in.

_________________
Nothing posted here should be construed as the opinion or position of my company, or an official position of WrongPlanet in any way, unless specifically mentioned.

Oodain
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,022
Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,

27 Mar 2012, 4:04 am

abacacus wrote:

LKL wrote:

Exit wounds are much larger, entry wounds not so much unless you're using some kind of expanding or explosive round.

true but between the two there is a shock channel creatyed by the vast difference in pressure over a very very short time

_________________
//through chaos comes complexity//

the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.

Page 16 of 25 [ 397 posts ] Go to page Previous 1 ... 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 ... 25 Next

Jump to:

Florida, where murder is legal Post Reply New Topic

Florida, where murder is legal