On punching Nazis
Kraichgauer
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
06 Feb 2017, 3:47 am
Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah-
If any of the Stormfront membership were to come to their senses, as the son of that site's founder has, then I will welcome them with open arms to civilized, pluralistic America.
But otherwise, I can only regard them as bigoted, small minded social misfits, some of whom pose a genuine threat to others. Here in Spokane a few years ago, a fanatic who belonged to another racist internet site had set a bomb to go off during the MLK Day march. Luckily, the bomb was discovered in time, the would be bomber arrested, and sentenced to prison. He is not the only possible domestic terrorist by a long shot. As misguided as the members of Stormfront, VDare, and others are, their hatred and paranoia make them more than just mere victims of their circumstances.
We take action against those people because they pose a threat to others. I approve of that wholeheartedly.If any of the Stormfront membership were to come to their senses, as the son of that site's founder has, then I will welcome them with open arms to civilized, pluralistic America.
But otherwise, I can only regard them as bigoted, small minded social misfits, some of whom pose a genuine threat to others. Here in Spokane a few years ago, a fanatic who belonged to another racist internet site had set a bomb to go off during the MLK Day march. Luckily, the bomb was discovered in time, the would be bomber arrested, and sentenced to prison. He is not the only possible domestic terrorist by a long shot. As misguided as the members of Stormfront, VDare, and others are, their hatred and paranoia make them more than just mere victims of their circumstances.
What I think is that I don't believe we should see them all as bad people when many of them have good characteristics.
Then the should stick to their good traits, and lose the hate.
Are they still bad?
As that ideology is bad, then I have to think those who take it to heart are bad, too. But even people who had been raised with that hate, again like the son of the Stormfront's founder, was able to change his thinking.
I realize this more and more as I know people. Wilburforce can't its just how they think we can't change them.
Maybe I'm just too Lutheran, but while I don't believe people are born good, I do believe anyone can be redeemable.
Its very interesting though, all the dictators Enver Pasha, Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao did so many bad things and didn't own up to it. They simply weren't capable of seeing what they did wrong it just wasn't how their mind worked.
We got to meet these racistpeople half way, and give support to their children so they don't adopt this deplorable racist ideology. Its the only route we can take, people will never change their minds but their children might.
I said I believe anyone can be redeemable.
_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
06 Feb 2017, 3:48 am
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Shahunshah-
If any of the Stormfront membership were to come to their senses, as the son of that site's founder has, then I will welcome them with open arms to civilized, pluralistic America.
But otherwise, I can only regard them as bigoted, small minded social misfits, some of whom pose a genuine threat to others. Here in Spokane a few years ago, a fanatic who belonged to another racist internet site had set a bomb to go off during the MLK Day march. Luckily, the bomb was discovered in time, the would be bomber arrested, and sentenced to prison. He is not the only possible domestic terrorist by a long shot. As misguided as the members of Stormfront, VDare, and others are, their hatred and paranoia make them more than just mere victims of their circumstances.
We take action against those people because they pose a threat to others. I approve of that wholeheartedly.If any of the Stormfront membership were to come to their senses, as the son of that site's founder has, then I will welcome them with open arms to civilized, pluralistic America.
But otherwise, I can only regard them as bigoted, small minded social misfits, some of whom pose a genuine threat to others. Here in Spokane a few years ago, a fanatic who belonged to another racist internet site had set a bomb to go off during the MLK Day march. Luckily, the bomb was discovered in time, the would be bomber arrested, and sentenced to prison. He is not the only possible domestic terrorist by a long shot. As misguided as the members of Stormfront, VDare, and others are, their hatred and paranoia make them more than just mere victims of their circumstances.
What I think is that I don't believe we should see them all as bad people when many of them have good characteristics.
Then the should stick to their good traits, and lose the hate.
Are they still bad?
As that ideology is bad, then I have to think those who take it to heart are bad, too. But even people who had been raised with that hate, again like the son of the Stormfront's founder, was able to change his thinking.
I realize this more and more as I know people. Wilburforce can't its just how they think we can't change them.
Maybe I'm just too Lutheran, but while I don't believe people are born good, I do believe anyone can be redeemable.
Its very interesting though, all the dictators Enver Pasha, Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao did so many bad things and didn't own up to it. They simply weren't capable of seeing what they did wrong it just wasn't how their mind worked.
We got to meet these racistpeople half way, and give support to their children so they don't adopt this deplorable racist ideology. Its the only route we can take, people will never change their minds but their children might.
I said I believe anyone can be redeemable.
Anyone can be I agree. Not everyone can change. Its who they are.
06 Feb 2017, 6:50 am
beneficii wrote:
Where did I or t1j say I support sucker-punching somebody?
T1J:”Am I okay with the fact that Richard Spencer got punched in the face – yeah!”
He is basically saying that using violence against people who hold a certain political ideology is justifiable. He doesn’t advocate for it but he certainly does not condemn the use of violence against his political opponents by saying that he is 'okay' with it.
Do you know who also didn’t condemn violence against people who held certain ideologies and beliefs? I’m sure you do.
“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
I just wanted to throw this quote in here because I think it’s fitting the topic to some degree.
kraftiekortie wrote:
What do you think are the intentions of the Neo-Nazis? Tell me ONE good intention!! !
I can’t name you any good intentions of Neo-Nazis. Because I disagree with them, I am opposed to their ideology. Their ideology once ruined my entire country. I could also not name you any good intentions of Communists (they killed even more civilians than Nationalsocialists did by the way). But I still condemn violence against both Neo-Nazis and Communists! I generally oppose fascistic methods and totalitarianism.
If you ask a Neo-Nazi the same question though, I am sure that he will come up with a lot of things which he thinks are good intentions.
kraftiekortie wrote:
This without Hitler, in any way, exhibiting "Aryan" characteristics.
I’ve always thought the irony that so many Nazis held/hold something above all else that they by no means resemble was rather hilarious. But I admit that I have a morbid and messed up sense of humour.
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“I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies but not the madness of people.” - Isaac Newton
Kraichgauer
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
06 Feb 2017, 2:06 pm
Reptile wrote:
beneficii wrote:
Where did I or t1j say I support sucker-punching somebody?
T1J:”Am I okay with the fact that Richard Spencer got punched in the face – yeah!”
He is basically saying that using violence against people who hold a certain political ideology is justifiable. He doesn’t advocate for it but he certainly does not condemn the use of violence against his political opponents by saying that he is 'okay' with it.
Do you know who also didn’t condemn violence against people who held certain ideologies and beliefs? I’m sure you do.
“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
I just wanted to throw this quote in here because I think it’s fitting the topic to some degree.
kraftiekortie wrote:
What do you think are the intentions of the Neo-Nazis? Tell me ONE good intention!! !
I can’t name you any good intentions of Neo-Nazis. Because I disagree with them, I am opposed to their ideology. Their ideology once ruined my entire country. I could also not name you any good intentions of Communists (they killed even more civilians than Nationalsocialists did by the way). But I still condemn violence against both Neo-Nazis and Communists! I generally oppose fascistic methods and totalitarianism.
If you ask a Neo-Nazi the same question though, I am sure that he will come up with a lot of things which he thinks are good intentions.
kraftiekortie wrote:
This without Hitler, in any way, exhibiting "Aryan" characteristics.
I’ve always thought the irony that so many Nazis held/hold something above all else that they by no means resemble was rather hilarious. But I admit that I have a morbid and messed up sense of humour.
Off topic, but might I ask where in Germany you're from?
_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
06 Feb 2017, 3:43 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Onyxaxe wrote:
I'm black so I'm glad he got punched. Nazis expect to be able to walk around proudly while wanting to exterminate an entire race that their ancestors brought over against their will. Add to that their supremacy is genetically unfounded as most Nazis have mixed lineage just like everyone else. Expecting us to be happy about being shot down in the streets while condemning all violence is asinine. This is a result of the surmounting turmoil of American racism and Xenophobia that everyone but minorities and their loved ones are afraid or unwilling to address. History repeats itself, if everyone wants to candy coat Nazis instead of tell them they don't belong we are going to have another Civil War.
The word "Nazi" gets thrown around too easily now. Just because someone is a white nationalist it doesn't mean they want to start putting people in concentration camps.
No, it means they want to deport all non-white people.
Are you aware that you sound like you're defending white nationalists?
You just defended blowing up innocent people on the other thread, so you probably ought to think before you type. So some people have the view that they want to deport all white people, yet your government and you have been supporting racial colonies in Palestine for 50 years. What's worse?
I'm defending everyone's right not to be attacked for their views. And duh, white people are allowed to be nationalists.
I defend bombing people who want to murder us - - not exactly innocent lambs.
And who seriously wants to deport white people? Two or three insanos? There are a lot more white nationalists who want to rid America of brown and black people.
I'm not going to get derailed with your Anti-Israeli notions.
And yes, people have the right to be something as deplorable as a white nationalist, but that doesn't mean the rest of us who know America's destiny lies with being a pluralistic society have to accept your Alti Right White Nationalist ideology.
There's zero evidence that they wanted to murder anyone. Amazing how your double standards work. You realise the 'suspects' were at a barbecue or funeral and the other innocent people around them were blown up? I guess Arabs are all terrorists in your eyes though. Unless Trump is banning them. Wait, you're pro Israel?
You support racial apartheid, ethnic cleansing and mass murder so don't lecture me about nationalism. How many people has that Spencer guy killed? You support and vote for mass murderers.
I'm talking about real terrorists, not accidental victims.
And no, not all Arabs are terrorists in my eyes. In fact, Arabs suffer more at the hands of terrorists than we or the Israelis do.
No, I don't support racial apartheid or ethnic cleansing. And as that stuff is I presume a reference to Israel, how am I defending any sort of nationalism even if I did support all that? I'm an American, not an Israeli.
Spencer hasn't killed anyone... yet. He definitely wants an America where all non-whites are expelled. As no one is going to give up their homes here in America, Spencer and his friends would doubtlessly respond with violence and murder if they ever got their way.
And as I recall, you had seemingly defended white nationalists. Why on earth would anyone do that, unless they're sympathetic to said nationalists' views?
You can't just say someone is a terrorist and blow up the barbecue they are at. Disgraceful for you to defend that Just cause Obama did it. It goes against the constitution, there is meant to be presumption of innocence. Israel can't do it without the US.
Again you are just making presumptions based on a guess. But it is far more likely that the thug who threw the punch is going to kill someone. I'm white and a bit of a nationalist. I know you've been conditioned to think that's evil but there's no shame in being a nationalist and/or white.
I'd have defended any innocent person's right not to be punched for their beliefs.
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Kraichgauer
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
06 Feb 2017, 11:33 pm
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Onyxaxe wrote:
I'm black so I'm glad he got punched. Nazis expect to be able to walk around proudly while wanting to exterminate an entire race that their ancestors brought over against their will. Add to that their supremacy is genetically unfounded as most Nazis have mixed lineage just like everyone else. Expecting us to be happy about being shot down in the streets while condemning all violence is asinine. This is a result of the surmounting turmoil of American racism and Xenophobia that everyone but minorities and their loved ones are afraid or unwilling to address. History repeats itself, if everyone wants to candy coat Nazis instead of tell them they don't belong we are going to have another Civil War.
The word "Nazi" gets thrown around too easily now. Just because someone is a white nationalist it doesn't mean they want to start putting people in concentration camps.
No, it means they want to deport all non-white people.
Are you aware that you sound like you're defending white nationalists?
You just defended blowing up innocent people on the other thread, so you probably ought to think before you type. So some people have the view that they want to deport all white people, yet your government and you have been supporting racial colonies in Palestine for 50 years. What's worse?
I'm defending everyone's right not to be attacked for their views. And duh, white people are allowed to be nationalists.
I defend bombing people who want to murder us - - not exactly innocent lambs.
And who seriously wants to deport white people? Two or three insanos? There are a lot more white nationalists who want to rid America of brown and black people.
I'm not going to get derailed with your Anti-Israeli notions.
And yes, people have the right to be something as deplorable as a white nationalist, but that doesn't mean the rest of us who know America's destiny lies with being a pluralistic society have to accept your Alti Right White Nationalist ideology.
There's zero evidence that they wanted to murder anyone. Amazing how your double standards work. You realise the 'suspects' were at a barbecue or funeral and the other innocent people around them were blown up? I guess Arabs are all terrorists in your eyes though. Unless Trump is banning them. Wait, you're pro Israel?
You support racial apartheid, ethnic cleansing and mass murder so don't lecture me about nationalism. How many people has that Spencer guy killed? You support and vote for mass murderers.
I'm talking about real terrorists, not accidental victims.
And no, not all Arabs are terrorists in my eyes. In fact, Arabs suffer more at the hands of terrorists than we or the Israelis do.
No, I don't support racial apartheid or ethnic cleansing. And as that stuff is I presume a reference to Israel, how am I defending any sort of nationalism even if I did support all that? I'm an American, not an Israeli.
Spencer hasn't killed anyone... yet. He definitely wants an America where all non-whites are expelled. As no one is going to give up their homes here in America, Spencer and his friends would doubtlessly respond with violence and murder if they ever got their way.
And as I recall, you had seemingly defended white nationalists. Why on earth would anyone do that, unless they're sympathetic to said nationalists' views?
You can't just say someone is a terrorist and blow up the barbecue they are at. Disgraceful for you to defend that Just cause Obama did it. It goes against the constitution, there is meant to be presumption of innocence. Israel can't do it without the US.
Again you are just making presumptions based on a guess. But it is far more likely that the thug who threw the punch is going to kill someone. I'm white and a bit of a nationalist. I know you've been conditioned to think that's evil but there's no shame in being a nationalist and/or white.
I'd have defended any innocent person's right not to be punched for their beliefs.
There isn't anything wrong with being white - I share that shade of color, myself. White nationalism, though, is against the very ideals that America as a pluralistic country is based on. America is based on an idea of equality and liberty, not on tribe or creed.
_________________
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
07 Feb 2017, 5:55 am
lidsmichelle wrote:
Why exactly are you asking me?
Because I want to know your thoughts about it.
Quote:
I have no control over laws, nor will I ever since I have no talent for or desire to be in law/politics.
Then why participate in political discussions?
Quote:
That would be a question to ask someone who could actually create a bill and get backing. Also said bill would never go through because the United States is an aggressive capitalist society and profit will always prevail over human rights. That's the nature of capitalism.
The question was not if your proposals could be past, but what you would propose.
07 Feb 2017, 7:44 am
Kraichgauer wrote:
Off topic, but might I ask where in Germany you're from?
Off topic indeed and quite unexpected too!
Brandenburg [North East]; I’m living in the North West though.
I have family and ancestors in both the North West and the North East.
Is there any specific reason why you wanted to know that?
_________________
“I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies but not the madness of people.” - Isaac Newton
07 Feb 2017, 8:30 am
People are now using this incident to justify what happened at the UC Berkeley riots (sorry if that was already mentioned, I didn't see anything about it in this thread). Innocent people were beaten unconscious. A girl who showed up to praise them for being peaceful was pepper sprayed in the face right after. These people are now neo-Nazis and it's now okay to punch them. Your local college's Republican Club? Neo-Nazis. Your grandmother? Neo-Nazi. An old veteran? Neo-Nazi (referring to that veteran whose house was burned down some time ago).
07 Feb 2017, 8:45 am
I'm not a lover of conservative or Republican ideas But the vast, vast, majority of conservative/Republicans are NOT Neo-Nazis, and shouldn't be classed with them.
They are, 99% of the time, reasonable people who express some ideas I don't agree with.
It was atrocious that they were pepper-sprayed or beaten up. Very "illiberal," if you ask me.
Kraichgauer
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Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
07 Feb 2017, 11:50 am
Reptile wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Off topic, but might I ask where in Germany you're from?
Off topic indeed and quite unexpected too!
Brandenburg [North East]; I’m living in the North West though.
I have family and ancestors in both the North West and the North East.
Is there any specific reason why you wanted to know that?
Both sides of my family are very German, even though both sides have been American for well over a hundred years. My dad's people were originally from the Kraichgau/Electoral Palatinate region (present day northwest Baden-Wurttemberg) before immigrating with thousands of others to the Black Sea region of Russia, then ultimately coming to America. My mom's parents were Prussians and Bavarians - yes, their in-laws hated each other. But anyway, I just have an interest in where my family had originated, so I thought I'd ask where specifically you were from.
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-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Kraichgauer
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Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,751
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
07 Feb 2017, 3:05 pm
Sigbold wrote:
Then why participate in political discussions?
Because I understand the actual concepts being discussed. What I don't have knowledge of is how to actually do the governmental bits. What else can I say other than "draft a bill that at least makes it harder for corporations take advantage of poor immigrants"? The idea of not discussing politics because you don't know how to write a bill is ridiculous. Do you believe only politicians should discuss politics? I'm kind of confused. Should you only discuss politics if you are a politician, have the skills/money to become one, wish to become one, or are working on becoming one. I don't have the ability to deal with big crowds and I'm incredibly far left leaning so I wouldn't have a chance anyways. I also don't believe in compromising on issues regarding human rights and it wouldn't sit well with me having to compromise to make corporations happy.
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07 Feb 2017, 3:20 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
Reptile wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Off topic, but might I ask where in Germany you're from?
Off topic indeed and quite unexpected too!
Brandenburg [North East]; I’m living in the North West though.
I have family and ancestors in both the North West and the North East.
Is there any specific reason why you wanted to know that?
Both sides of my family are very German, even though both sides have been American for well over a hundred years. My dad's people were originally from the Kraichgau/Electoral Palatinate region (present day northwest Baden-Wurttemberg) before immigrating with thousands of others to the Black Sea region of Russia, then ultimately coming to America. My mom's parents were Prussians and Bavarians - yes, their in-laws hated each other. But anyway, I just have an interest in where my family had originated, so I thought I'd ask where specifically you were from.
That’s interesting. A good friend of mine is from a village in Baden-Württemberg. It is a beautiful state with great landscapes and a well functioning economy.
I had to smile at the Prussian and Bavarian part, it is a great combination. It didn’t really surprise me to read that their in-laws hated each other though.
When my family went to Bavaria for the holidays and they made a snowball fight in a little village, an old Bavarian lady in traditional clothes got mad and screamed:”You bloody Prussians, get the hell out of here!” and she meant it. She couldn’t stand us Prussians.
A few of the old generation still take that somewhat seriously I think. While the rivalry between what used to be Prussians and Bavarians is more or less joking material for the younger people but no one holds any grudge against each other, not that I know of at least.
I grew up with a lot of jokes about Bavarians and I learned their jokes about Prussians when I worked together with a Bavarian acquaintance. We used to make fun about each other’s heritage a lot and annoyed some other people by doing that.
I see; I can understand that for I’ve always been interested in my family’s history as well.
_________________
“I can calculate the motion of heavenly bodies but not the madness of people.” - Isaac Newton
07 Feb 2017, 5:27 pm
Reptile wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Reptile wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Off topic, but might I ask where in Germany you're from?
Off topic indeed and quite unexpected too!
Brandenburg [North East]; I’m living in the North West though.
I have family and ancestors in both the North West and the North East.
Is there any specific reason why you wanted to know that?
Both sides of my family are very German, even though both sides have been American for well over a hundred years. My dad's people were originally from the Kraichgau/Electoral Palatinate region (present day northwest Baden-Wurttemberg) before immigrating with thousands of others to the Black Sea region of Russia, then ultimately coming to America. My mom's parents were Prussians and Bavarians - yes, their in-laws hated each other. But anyway, I just have an interest in where my family had originated, so I thought I'd ask where specifically you were from.
That’s interesting. A good friend of mine is from a village in Baden-Württemberg. It is a beautiful state with great landscapes and a well functioning economy.
I had to smile at the Prussian and Bavarian part, it is a great combination. It didn’t really surprise me to read that their in-laws hated each other though.
When my family went to Bavaria for the holidays and they made a snowball fight in a little village, an old Bavarian lady in traditional clothes got mad and screamed:”You bloody Prussians, get the hell out of here!” and she meant it. She couldn’t stand us Prussians.
A few of the old generation still take that somewhat seriously I think. While the rivalry between what used to be Prussians and Bavarians is more or less joking material for the younger people but no one holds any grudge against each other, not that I know of at least.
I grew up with a lot of jokes about Bavarians and I learned their jokes about Prussians when I worked together with a Bavarian acquaintance. We used to make fun about each other’s heritage a lot and annoyed some other people by doing that.
I see; I can understand that for I’ve always been interested in my family’s history as well.
To Reptile: From what I gather there does seem to be a "Mason Dixon Line" in the German speaking world between the Prussian culture of the north, and the Catholic Bavarian and Austrian South. With jokes to go along with it. Jokes centered on how the southerners have a laid back joi d' vie, and the northerners are ram rod straight anal rentative martinets.
To Kraishgauer: Our family was poring over a language/ethnic map of Europe (the kind in which the Germanic languages are shades of red, the Slavic languages green, and the Romance languages are gray) we noticed bloodlike droplets of red labeled "German" at various points deep in Russia (like around the Black Sea, and even farther east into central Asia). We all wondered what that was about- these isolated enclaves of Germans deep in Russia. Never thought I would actually meet someone (even in cyberspace) who has a background coming from one of those isolated little beads of red on the map of Russia. Lol!
My own mostly German background American family comes from Hesse, and from Alsace-Lorraine ( the German speaking region that keeps changing hands between Germany and France that since the last war as been part of France).
Germans are the second largest ethnic group in America after the English. But we have only had two German American presidents. The first was Eisenhower, the second was a guy descended from an immigrant named "Drumpf".
