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If Liberals are so empathetic...

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ruveyn
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28 May 2012, 7:25 am

heavenlyabyss wrote:
Liberal, liberal, liberal. What does it mean to be a liberal?

Attacking an attacker is a sublime move.

We've got angry conservatives, we've got angry liberals. That is all.. Emotion, it has no meaning.


In the modern usage of the word, a liberal is pro State. It corresponds to the term Tory used when Herbert Spencer wrote Man and The State.

Liberals think the State is the main engine of progress in modern societies. While a degree of regulation is necessary (as in a Necessary Evil) that State is not a Good Thing. It corresponds to the inability of humans to be just to their fellow humans most of the time. The State exists because of human weakness, not because it is Good. Read Hobbes -The Leviathan-.

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28 May 2012, 8:44 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
marshall wrote:
Raptor wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Raptor wrote:

Free healthcare and education?
So you're saying that the facilities, supplies, services, and personnel that it takes to provide these services costs nobody anything?
Apparently hey do not have taxes in these countries.
Hmmmm..............


As Robert A. Heinlein once write (or said). There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

ruveyn


They can't seem to grasp that.
It's economics at its simplest but they just don't (or won't) get it.
:wall:


"We" know that it is paid through taxation. :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:


And we have more important things we need to be doing with tax revenue than handing out free rubbers, abortions, methadone clinics, and whatever else your side wants to squander it on......
:roll:


Such as better means to murder dark skinned foreigners?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Which dark skinned foreigners are we murdering now?
This should be good............ :roll:


Kinda what we've been doing for the last eight, ten years. And I mean in Iraq, not our legitimate beef we've got with Al Qeuda.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


If it were up to me both Iraq and Afghanistan would have been wrapped up in a lot less than 10 years. It would have meant taking the gloves off, of course.........



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28 May 2012, 8:49 am

ahh genocide or indisciminate collateral dammage

the only actual meanings of "taking the gloves off" in the context of iraq and afghanistan at least, remember there is no clear cut enemy and no clear cut territory.


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28 May 2012, 9:37 am

Dox47 wrote:
*sigh*

I suppose team Red vs team Blue overwhelming my thread was pretty inevitable.

Team Red: Being fiscally responsible doesn't mean just cutting out the butter, you have to cut out some guns too, and there's a lot of waste there; this is me as a gunmaker saying it.

Team Blue: Yes, it would be great if we could just give everyone all the butter they need to live, but it does have to be paid for and all the good intentions in the world don't change that; it's not heartless to point that out.

There.


Uh, TAXES and cutting out a lot of the "guns". Talking as if universal healthcare is impossible is a lie. We already pay for it as we decided it would be heartless and cruel to deny people emergency treatment. That's not what this debate is really about. It's about this notion that taxing for a public service is "stealing" and thus "team red" is unwilling.



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28 May 2012, 5:20 pm

^

Actually, if you recall I started this thread to discuss a research finding suggesting that Team Red understands Team Blue better than Team Blue understands Team Red, and so far the in thread discussion has supported that claim. To whit, the idea that "taxation is theft" is the only thing motivating the anti-tax crowd, and not a genuine desire to force improvements in the system before committing more money to it.


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28 May 2012, 5:24 pm

Image



BrandonSP
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28 May 2012, 10:23 pm

Dox47 wrote:
BrandonSP wrote:
Considering that what passes for modern American conservatism is a hideous hybrid of racism, xenophobia, sexism, religious fanaticism, imperialism, and corporatism, I cannot sympathize with it. Conservative politics are rooted in a brutish desire to dominate and oppress other people, which I find morally repugnant. Of course individual conservatives can still be decent people despite their ignorance, but conservatism itself is an evil ideology.


Did you read the OP?


As a matter of fact, I did, and I submit that the reason liberal estimation of conservatives' beliefs may contradict what conservatives themselves report to pollsters because certain conservatives (particularly extreme right-wing ones) often lie to disguise how morally repugnant their beliefs truly are. As an example, wingnuts oppose welfare and affirmative action primarily because they believe in white supremacy, yet few wingnuts are honest enough to admit to being racist.


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Dox47
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29 May 2012, 1:02 am

BrandonSP wrote:
As a matter of fact, I did, and I submit that the reason liberal estimation of conservatives' beliefs may contradict what conservatives themselves report to pollsters because certain conservatives (particularly extreme right-wing ones) often lie to disguise how morally repugnant their beliefs truly are. As an example, wingnuts oppose welfare and affirmative action primarily because they believe in white supremacy, yet few wingnuts are honest enough to admit to being racist.


I oppose affirmative action and have serious issues with welfare; please, please call me a racist...


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ruveyn
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29 May 2012, 1:58 am

Dox47 wrote:

I oppose affirmative action and have serious issues with welfare; please, please call me a racist...


O.K. You are a racist.

And a meanie too. You want to deprive persons of color your income and you want to let incompetent deadbeats perish of their own stupidity. How dreadful!

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29 May 2012, 4:23 am

ruveyn wrote:
Dox47 wrote:

I oppose affirmative action and have serious issues with welfare; please, please call me a racist...


O.K. You are a racist.

And a meanie too. You want to deprive persons of color your income and you want to let incompetent deadbeats perish of their own stupidity. How dreadful!

ruveyn


And here it is, the answer to the OP's question. This here is the heart of the matter, more important than any of the semantics or the details. Liberals have a problem with people who think that human life is expendable, just because a person has made bad choices or isn't so fortunate in life. They have a problem with believing that the system will always work out and the most deserving will always prosper, because it is simply not true.

Granted, I realize ruveyn's post was half-sarcasm, but I'm guessing it was half serious as well (?)

It is the reason why conservatives are considered cruel rather than simply wrong. Of course, not all conservatives think this way, but the most outspoken ones do.



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29 May 2012, 4:38 am

Quote:
Liberals have a problem with people who think that human life is expendable, just because a person has made bad choices or isn't so fortunate in life.


Not giving people free money is hardly the same as considering human life to be expendable.



heavenlyabyss
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29 May 2012, 4:56 am

Rainy wrote:
Quote:
Liberals have a problem with people who think that human life is expendable, just because a person has made bad choices or isn't so fortunate in life.


Not giving people free money is hardly the same as considering human life to be expendable.


That is not what I said. What I said is that some conservatives think poor people are expendable. It is about attitude.

The average conservative when talking about the poor will go on the attack rather than give economic of pragmatic reasons for their views. This shows to me a lack of empathy. The more intelligent ones will try to give intelligent reasons but most do not. You can tell they simply don't care.



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29 May 2012, 5:56 am

Let me just add that I am not a liberal.

I never vote. I like to debate politics online because it gives me insight into the way people think. I side with liberals on most social issues, but I agree with the conservatives that government tends to be more bad than good. Conservatives are wrong when they think that liberals want the government to do everything for them... I mean conservatives, liberals, it's just nonsense. These words have no meaning.



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29 May 2012, 10:30 am

Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
marshall wrote:
Raptor wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Raptor wrote:

Free healthcare and education?
So you're saying that the facilities, supplies, services, and personnel that it takes to provide these services costs nobody anything?
Apparently hey do not have taxes in these countries.
Hmmmm..............


As Robert A. Heinlein once write (or said). There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

ruveyn


They can't seem to grasp that.
It's economics at its simplest but they just don't (or won't) get it.
:wall:


"We" know that it is paid through taxation. :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:


And we have more important things we need to be doing with tax revenue than handing out free rubbers, abortions, methadone clinics, and whatever else your side wants to squander it on......
:roll:


Such as better means to murder dark skinned foreigners?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Which dark skinned foreigners are we murdering now?
This should be good............ :roll:


Kinda what we've been doing for the last eight, ten years. And I mean in Iraq, not our legitimate beef we've got with Al Qeuda.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


If it were up to me both Iraq and Afghanistan would have been wrapped up in a lot less than 10 years. It would have meant taking the gloves off, of course.........


Why go into Iraq at all? There was no real connection between Bin Laden and Hussein, nor were there any WMD's.
If you wanted to get rid of Saddam, there were enough dissatisfied Iraqi military men who could have staged a coup. We know this, because former CIA operative Bob Baer had orchestrated one, only to see it fail because of what he termed "the lack of political will" during the Clinton years.
See, I even criticized Bill Clinton.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



marshall
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29 May 2012, 11:37 am

Dox47 wrote:
^

Actually, if you recall I started this thread to discuss a research finding suggesting that Team Red understands Team Blue better than Team Blue understands Team Red, and so far the in thread discussion has supported that claim. To whit, the idea that "taxation is theft" is the only thing motivating the anti-tax crowd, and not a genuine desire to force improvements in the system before committing more money to it.


Then why do I never hear about such "desired improvements" when arguing with "team red"? It inevitably happens that whenever I try to argue the ways in which government intervention and certain forms of "redistribution" can help society as a whole, what I get back is yet another rehash of "liberals just hate rich people and want free handouts". I make a logical and pragmatic argument, they come back with smears and talk of "bums and freeloaders".

I'd also point out that the finding you're citing is based on one survey, and the results of any given survey are always going to be highly sensitive to the particular choice of questions and wording within.



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29 May 2012, 6:15 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
marshall wrote:
Raptor wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Raptor wrote:

Free healthcare and education?
So you're saying that the facilities, supplies, services, and personnel that it takes to provide these services costs nobody anything?
Apparently hey do not have taxes in these countries.
Hmmmm..............


As Robert A. Heinlein once write (or said). There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.

ruveyn


They can't seem to grasp that.
It's economics at its simplest but they just don't (or won't) get it.
:wall:


"We" know that it is paid through taxation. :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:


And we have more important things we need to be doing with tax revenue than handing out free rubbers, abortions, methadone clinics, and whatever else your side wants to squander it on......
:roll:


Such as better means to murder dark skinned foreigners?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Which dark skinned foreigners are we murdering now?
This should be good............ :roll:


Kinda what we've been doing for the last eight, ten years. And I mean in Iraq, not our legitimate beef we've got with Al Qeuda.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


If it were up to me both Iraq and Afghanistan would have been wrapped up in a lot less than 10 years. It would have meant taking the gloves off, of course.........


Why go into Iraq at all? There was no real connection between Bin Laden and Hussein, nor were there any WMD's.
If you wanted to get rid of Saddam, there were enough dissatisfied Iraqi military men who could have staged a coup. We know this, because former CIA operative Bob Baer had orchestrated one, only to see it fail because of what he termed "the lack of political will" during the Clinton years.
See, I even criticized Bill Clinton.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


At the time it was believed that Iraq did have WMD's. Of course, we'll never know for sure what they had since they had plenty of time to move things out and destroy/hide evidence once the invasion started.
The Clinton regime cut intelligence spending that would have enabled us to get better intel but we can't very well blame good old Bill when we have George Jr. to kick around. There even times when Iraq denied UN inspectors access to certain areas but whatever............
I'm sure your love of Islam and hatred of republicans will insist that you come back with something but i don't know if I'll bother to read it or not......
:roll: