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On punching Nazis

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Kraichgauer
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12 Feb 2017, 10:22 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
No Bill. America was based on genocide and slavery.


Slavery and genocide were the past sins of America that we are still trying to atone for. Because our country is based on the ideals of liberty and equality, we are able to face those original sins head on, and try to rectify them.


Atoning for by destroying numerous countries across the world, some in Africa? Please cut the crap.


I was talking about atoning for America's sins in America.


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JohnPowell
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13 Feb 2017, 1:04 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
No Bill. America was based on genocide and slavery.


Slavery and genocide were the past sins of America that we are still trying to atone for. Because our country is based on the ideals of liberty and equality, we are able to face those original sins head on, and try to rectify them.


Atoning for by destroying numerous countries across the world, some in Africa? Please cut the crap.


US involvement in Angola certainly wasn't atoning, it was proxy war that prolonged the civil war by at least a decade. Also it goes against "for oil" argument as they were going to loose out on what is the second biggest oil field in sub-Saharan Africa, which they have the contract now.

I also think that Vietnam was one of the bigger mistakes along with Iraq. However fortunately thing are on the up with Vietnam relations, they have better relations with the US than they do with China, of which there is no love lost.

However we should put things in their proper historical context, you could use similar anti-colonial rhetoric against the American as you could with Turks.

I think idea of atoning for historical ills is itself problematic, and like you say it can cause more harm than good. I say take Vietnam's example and move on. Whist I don't agree with Japan's historical denialism, Hiroshima was bad enough and they way they picked themselves up and rebuilt is admirable.

If we take the US involvement in the middle east that is one century out of thirteen of sectarian conflicts in the region.

The British as a colonial power was quite late into the middle east, it was only due to the fallout of the Ottoman empire.

China is probably the one to look out for the newest imperial power. Both in commercial land banking, and territory claims.


These interventions aren't mistakes. The following carnage is intentional.


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JohnPowell
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13 Feb 2017, 1:05 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
No Bill. America was based on genocide and slavery.


Slavery and genocide were the past sins of America that we are still trying to atone for. Because our country is based on the ideals of liberty and equality, we are able to face those original sins head on, and try to rectify them.


Atoning for by destroying numerous countries across the world, some in Africa? Please cut the crap.


I was talking about atoning for America's sins in America.


Slavery wasn't a home problem. They bought slaves from Africa.


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Kraichgauer
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13 Feb 2017, 1:44 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
No Bill. America was based on genocide and slavery.


Slavery and genocide were the past sins of America that we are still trying to atone for. Because our country is based on the ideals of liberty and equality, we are able to face those original sins head on, and try to rectify them.


Atoning for by destroying numerous countries across the world, some in Africa? Please cut the crap.


I was talking about atoning for America's sins in America.


Slavery wasn't a home problem. They bought slaves from Africa.


But Americans didn't have to adopt the practice, or perpetuate it.


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BettaPonic
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13 Feb 2017, 4:59 pm

Slavery was the norm throughout history. Africans sold slaves. The Muslim world actually started slavery as we know it. Slavery was the only way for agriculture to start up. There were no machines for doing manual labor. We grew beyond that with technology. I am glad all societies outlawed slavery and look forward for a world with no slavery.



JohnPowell
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14 Feb 2017, 12:25 pm

We just make people suffer in other ways now.


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kraftiekortie
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14 Feb 2017, 2:55 pm

Yep....slavery was the norm THEN.

Of course, Africans sold each other. So did Asians. So did Europeans. So did people in the Americas. Etc....Ad Nauseum.

It is not now. We're in the 21st Century.

You would hope that human beings have advanced from the point where they consider other persons "property."



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14 Feb 2017, 2:57 pm

Is it okay to punch a German? Um....no.


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kraftiekortie
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14 Feb 2017, 3:01 pm

It's not okay to punch anybody without provocation.



Kraichgauer
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14 Feb 2017, 3:02 pm

CockneyRebel wrote:
Is it okay to punch a German? Um....no.


In all fairness, though, 0ver 99% of Germans today despise their country's Nazi past, and so hardly deserve to be called Nazis, let alone punched.


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14 Feb 2017, 3:18 pm

Image


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BettaPonic
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14 Feb 2017, 4:19 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Yep....slavery was the norm THEN.

Of course, Africans sold each other. So did Asians. So did Europeans. So did people in the Americas. Etc....Ad Nauseum.

It is not now. We're in the 21st Century.

You would hope that human beings have advanced from the point where they consider other persons "property."


Slavery is actually pretty common in some countries. Haiti has slavery to an extent that it is pretty easy to buy slaves. In the Congo pygmies are enslaved by the Bantu. In South America people are forced to make charcoal. In Indonesia people are forced to fish. In China the government will arrest people without cause and make them work in labor camps.



JohnPowell
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14 Feb 2017, 5:22 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Yep....slavery was the norm THEN.

Of course, Africans sold each other. So did Asians. So did Europeans. So did people in the Americas. Etc....Ad Nauseum.

It is not now. We're in the 21st Century.

You would hope that human beings have advanced from the point where they consider other persons "property."


We're no better now. Just have more extreme propaganda.


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Kraichgauer
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14 Feb 2017, 5:31 pm

BettaPonic wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Yep....slavery was the norm THEN.

Of course, Africans sold each other. So did Asians. So did Europeans. So did people in the Americas. Etc....Ad Nauseum.

It is not now. We're in the 21st Century.

You would hope that human beings have advanced from the point where they consider other persons "property."


Slavery is actually pretty common in some countries. Haiti has slavery to an extent that it is pretty easy to buy slaves. In the Congo pygmies are enslaved by the Bantu. In South America people are forced to make charcoal. In Indonesia people are forced to fish. In China the government will arrest people without cause and make them work in labor camps.


A rose by another name.
But even here in America, some wealthy nair-do-wells hire immigrants, and force them to work without pay, either taking their green cards, or if illegal, threaten to report them to the authorities if said immigrant workers won't cooperate and be good slaves. Then there's the whole prostitution thing in industrialized countries, where women and girls, often from the third world, are forced to work as prostitutes without pay.


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kraftiekortie
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14 Feb 2017, 7:36 pm

What you said could happen....definitely.

But I've known immigrants....and none of this has happened to them.

Many immigrant women, for example, work and live in peoples' homes, and get like $350 a week---enough to send back home to their countries.



Kraichgauer
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14 Feb 2017, 10:44 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
What you said could happen....definitely.

But I've known immigrants....and none of this has happened to them.

Many immigrant women, for example, work and live in peoples' homes, and get like $350 a week---enough to send back home to their countries.


It may be rare, burt rest assured, it has happened.


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