It looks like Obama's healthcare is evolving into extortion

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CaroleTucson
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11 Sep 2009, 5:11 pm

The amount of disinformation flying around the stratosphere about this issue is beyond belief. I'm wondering if most of the so-called conservatives who whine and b***h like 5-year-olds needing a nap about everything Obama says or does are simply following the lead of their main whiner Rush Limbaugh in hoping that the president fails. That's real patriotism for you ... hoping that the leader of your country "fails".

These Limbaugh-lovers jump from one BS issue to the next ... one day it's that he's not "really an American". The next day it's that "he's in league with Islamic terrorists". The next day it's something else. Do they care that none of those ridiculous accusations haven't the slightest basis in fact? Nope, not them. Hell, tomorrow's another day ... plenty of time to fabricate some new asinine accusation.

We even have some right-wing whacko minister praying that Obama dies. You conservatives really want this nut-case in your camp? If you do, then you're one taco short of a combo meal, just like he is.



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11 Sep 2009, 5:27 pm

For once I agree with the OP.

The purpose of this bill is not to bring good quality medical aid to everyone. Instead it is a cynical attempt to reduce the healthcare costs of big business. The cost for them not to insure there workers is capped at $400 (and only payable if the employee gets a tax credit for taking out their own insurance)far cheaper than providing health care. Workers who choose not to (or cannot) buy insurance would be punished at a far higher rate. Under the Baucus plan, for those with incomes between 100 percent and 300 percent of the poverty level—$10,830 for an individual and $22,050 for a family of four—the penalty for not having coverage would be $750 a year per person, with a maximum penalty of $1,500 for a family.

In a nutshell A market of private insurers will be set up to offer substandard health plans. Individuals will be required to buy insurance and potentially will be fined thousands of dollars if they do not. Employers will find it easier to ditch employer-provided health coverage, thus boosting corporate profits. At the same time, the ultimate aim is to phase out or cut government spending on entitlement programs particularly Medicare, which, under the pretext of eliminating “waste” and “inefficiencies,” will be subject to immediate cuts.

Obama is far from progressive, he is not a socialist, and this health care reform has the underprivileged in its sights in an attempt to boost corporate profits


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claire-333
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11 Sep 2009, 5:30 pm

CaroleTucson wrote:
The amount of disinformation flying around the stratosphere about this issue is beyond belief. I'm wondering if most of the so-called conservatives who whine and b***h like 5-year-olds needing a nap about everything Obama says or does are simply following the lead of their main whiner Rush Limbaugh in hoping that the president fails. That's real patriotism for you ... hoping that the leader of your country "fails".

These Limbaugh-lovers jump from one BS issue to the next ... one day it's that he's not "really an American". The next day it's that "he's in league with Islamic terrorists". The next day it's something else. Do they care that none of those ridiculous accusations haven't the slightest basis in fact? Nope, not them. Hell, tomorrow's another day ... plenty of time to fabricate some new asinine accusation.

We even have some right-wing whacko minister praying that Obama dies. You conservatives really want this nut-case in your camp? If you do, then you're one taco short of a combo meal, just like he is.
Why would you assume everyone with reservations over the current health care proposals is conservative, much less an Obama hating, Limbaugh loving uber conservative?



ed
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11 Sep 2009, 5:57 pm

claire333 wrote:
ed wrote:
Your post implies that 20-40% is what these people pay for their health insurance. It reminds me of what my father used to say: "figures don't lie, but liars sure figure!"

Yes, they do pay higher taxes than we do, and some of that is for their health care, but certainly not all of that.
I do not care for the implication I am a liar. If the figures are wrong then correct me, I have no problem with being wrong. I know their taxes are used for more than healthcare, just like our taxes are used for more than to support our current healthcare programs. It does not change the fact, for a system like this to work, the money is going to have to come from somewhere. But hey, I am fairly poor so it most likely will not be from me.


I didn't care for your implication either... a lie doesn't have to be overt to be a lie... a lie by implication is no less a lie.


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claire-333
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11 Sep 2009, 7:18 pm

ed wrote:
I didn't care for your implication either... a lie doesn't have to be overt to be a lie... a lie by implication is no less a lie.
That I do not view it the same way you do does not make deceit my intent. It is no lie, If I lived in Europe the tax rates would crush my family at the income we have now. If I were taxed at a similar rate I would not be able to make ends meet, but at least I would have government health care.



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11 Sep 2009, 7:33 pm

claire333 wrote:
CaroleTucson wrote:
The amount of disinformation flying around the stratosphere about this issue is beyond belief. I'm wondering if most of the so-called conservatives who whine and b***h like 5-year-olds needing a nap about everything Obama says or does are simply following the lead of their main whiner Rush Limbaugh in hoping that the president fails. That's real patriotism for you ... hoping that the leader of your country "fails".

These Limbaugh-lovers jump from one BS issue to the next ... one day it's that he's not "really an American". The next day it's that "he's in league with Islamic terrorists". The next day it's something else. Do they care that none of those ridiculous accusations haven't the slightest basis in fact? Nope, not them. Hell, tomorrow's another day ... plenty of time to fabricate some new asinine accusation.

We even have some right-wing whacko minister praying that Obama dies. You conservatives really want this nut-case in your camp? If you do, then you're one taco short of a combo meal, just like he is.
Why would you assume everyone with reservations over the current health care proposals is conservative, much less an Obama hating, Limbaugh loving uber conservative?


Indeed I would be incredulous if anyone accused me of being right wing 8O . You need to carefully analyse what Obama is putting forward in this legislation and his motives for doing so. I will agree that the far right are using histrionics to build a case out of fear, they need to look at what is going on and ask themselves why it is the insurance companies are for the most part in favour of his reforms, and why their stocks have leapt in value


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DentArthurDent
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11 Sep 2009, 7:40 pm

Claire Ed does have a point, our taxes may be higher than yours (from memory ours ranges between 20 - 35%) but as he states this increased tax burden is not just to support health care, it also goes towards housing, unemployment benefits, and other social rebates. The top rate of Tax used to be 48% but that was only on very high incomes, and to be honest there is a direct correlation between the lowering of the maximum tax rate and destruction of services. BTW our sales tax is 10% which I think is comparable to yours?


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11 Sep 2009, 7:54 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
For once I agree with the OP.

The purpose of this bill is not to bring good quality medical aid to everyone. Instead it is a cynical attempt to reduce the healthcare costs of big business. The cost for them not to insure there workers is capped at $400 (and only payable if the employee gets a tax credit for taking out their own insurance)far cheaper than providing health care. Workers who choose not to (or cannot) buy insurance would be punished at a far higher rate. Under the Baucus plan, for those with incomes between 100 percent and 300 percent of the poverty level—$10,830 for an individual and $22,050 for a family of four—the penalty for not having coverage would be $750 a year per person, with a maximum penalty of $1,500 for a family.

In a nutshell A market of private insurers will be set up to offer substandard health plans. Individuals will be required to buy insurance and potentially will be fined thousands of dollars if they do not. Employers will find it easier to ditch employer-provided health coverage, thus boosting corporate profits. At the same time, the ultimate aim is to phase out or cut government spending on entitlement programs particularly Medicare, which, under the pretext of eliminating “waste” and “inefficiencies,” will be subject to immediate cuts.

Obama is far from progressive, he is not a socialist, and this health care reform has the underprivileged in its sights in an attempt to boost corporate profits

I'm not saying you're lying, but I just want to know where you got this. It wouldn't surprise me though, because I knew in the end it would just end up enriching the health insurance corps. Obama's just a corporate puppet like Bush was. It's sad that so many people still don't realize that.



claire-333
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11 Sep 2009, 7:59 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
Claire Ed does have a point, our taxes may be higher than yours (from memory ours ranges between 20 - 35%) but as he states this increased tax burden is not just to support health care, it also goes towards housing, unemployment benefits, and other social rebates. The top rate of Tax used to be 48% but that was only on very high incomes, and to be honest there is a direct correlation between the lowering of the maximum tax rate and destruction of services. BTW our sales tax is 10% which I think is comparable to yours?
I conceded to Ed's point on how taxes are used. You have both made the point that universal health care is the main difference in government benefits, so I do not think it is in error for me to assume, when I see the average tax rates in Europe are a about a third higher than the US, that the difference is the universal health care. The only point Ed made which I disagreed is that I am a liar. But like I said before, I am pretty broke at the moment, so maybe I can get lucky and not be the one to pay out the butt...otherwise, I will needing more from the government than health care. Do not get me wrong, I understand the people who look at this in a positive light, but just have trouble getting all stars in the eyes and thinking oooh I might be able to get free health care coverage. Maybe it is just that old 'if it seems too good to be true' thing.



btalex1990
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12 Sep 2009, 2:08 am

claire333 wrote:
Interesting. Thanks for posting this. I sometimes get a little annoyed over all this talk of a universal health care system, when most no one seems to notice it will be no such thing; it will be a government controlled health insurance system. I wonder how many people in the health insurance industry will be forced to opt for government health care when the company they work for is driven out of business due to the government offering lower rates? :hmph:


Yeah and it's all that communist traitor Michael Moores fault. He made everyone think that universal healthcare is a free a great system where everyone gets the best care and people get all for free but he forgot to mention killing the seniors for efficiency, and kill all cancer patients as well for efficiency, and make taxes go exetremly high while disabled that can't work get kicked out and forced to work or die.

Michael Moore is sentencing us all to death!



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12 Sep 2009, 3:31 am

Cyanide wrote:
I'm not saying you're lying, but I just want to know where you got this. It wouldn't surprise me though, because I knew in the end it would just end up enriching the health insurance corps. Obama's just a corporate puppet like Bush was. It's sad that so many people still don't realize that.


I got this info from the political party that I am associated with. I have contacted them to provide me with their source. As soon as I get it I will post it here. I suspect that it is buried in the 98 page Baucus white paper


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DentArthurDent
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12 Sep 2009, 4:04 am

btalex1990 wrote:

Yeah and it's all that communist traitor Michael Moores fault. He made everyone think that universal healthcare is a free a great system where everyone gets the best care and people get all for free but he forgot to mention killing the seniors for efficiency, and kill all cancer patients as well for efficiency, and make taxes go exetremly high while disabled that can't work get kicked out and forced to work or die.

Michael Moore is sentencing us all to death!


I love a good heated debate, I also love intelligent trolls. However you will have to try much much harder


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12 Sep 2009, 4:07 am

claire333 wrote:
ed wrote:
Your post implies that 20-40% is what these people pay for their health insurance. It reminds me of what my father used to say: "figures don't lie, but liars sure figure!"

Yes, they do pay higher taxes than we do, and some of that is for their health care, but certainly not all of that.
I do not care for the implication I am a liar. If the figures are wrong then correct me, I have no problem with being wrong. I know their taxes are used for more than healthcare, just like our taxes are used for more than to support our current healthcare programs. It does not change the fact, for a system like this to work, the money is going to have to come from somewhere. But hey, I am fairly poor so it most likely will not be from me.


I don't think he was calling you a liar so much as he was trying to say that you're falling for misinformation that (eventually) comes from liars. The way the information was presented was certainly misleading and seemed to imply that a large reason why there would be such high taxes was because of healthcare.

BTW, I normally end up losing about 30% of my money to taxes and i've never made more than 30k or so in a year. So....what difference is it to me? My 30% makes a much bigger difference in lifestyle than even 60% of someone making 250k. Note: that's considering the REAL cost of food, utilities, and housing.


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claire-333
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12 Sep 2009, 10:03 am

skafather84 wrote:
I don't think he was calling you a liar so much as he was trying to say that you're falling for misinformation that (eventually) comes from liars. The way the information was presented was certainly misleading and seemed to imply that a large reason why there would be such high taxes was because of healthcare.

BTW, I normally end up losing about 30% of my money to taxes and i've never made more than 30k or so in a year. So....what difference is it to me? My 30% makes a much bigger difference in lifestyle than even 60% of someone making 250k. Note: that's considering the REAL cost of food, utilities, and housing.
Yes, single people are hit very hard. My family is fairly low income so we fall into the group which really does not pay income taxes. How it misleading for me to convert my income to euros and and calcuate my taxes using the tax table for the UK? I came up with 22%, btw. I do think the main reason for the difference in taxes is because of healthcare. The person who I wrote that post to seems to make more than us, given the numbers they provided, but they do have one more child so I figured it evens things out a bit. They, also like me, are not in the group of people in the US paying much in the way of income tax. I have trouble seeing the error in my thought process to look to the UK as an example to conclude they might pay more than 18%.

As for defending Ed...no worries...I am over it today. That is the ironic beauty of it all. He and I are both free to view the issue however we like. He likes the idea; it worries my stomach, but what we think about it really does not matter.



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12 Sep 2009, 1:00 pm

claire333 wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
I don't think he was calling you a liar so much as he was trying to say that you're falling for misinformation that (eventually) comes from liars. The way the information was presented was certainly misleading and seemed to imply that a large reason why there would be such high taxes was because of healthcare.

BTW, I normally end up losing about 30% of my money to taxes and i've never made more than 30k or so in a year. So....what difference is it to me? My 30% makes a much bigger difference in lifestyle than even 60% of someone making 250k. Note: that's considering the REAL cost of food, utilities, and housing.
Yes, single people are hit very hard. My family is fairly low income so we fall into the group which really does not pay income taxes. How it misleading for me to convert my income to euros and and calcuate my taxes using the tax table for the UK? I came up with 22%, btw. I do think the main reason for the difference in taxes is because of healthcare. The person who I wrote that post to seems to make more than us, given the numbers they provided, but they do have one more child so I figured it evens things out a bit. They, also like me, are not in the group of people in the US paying much in the way of income tax. I have trouble seeing the error in my thought process to look to the UK as an example to conclude they might pay more than 18%.

As for defending Ed...no worries...I am over it today. That is the ironic beauty of it all. He and I are both free to view the issue however we like. He likes the idea; it worries my stomach, but what we think about it really does not matter.


Sweden would be a better example if you want a place that actually handles taxes and healthcare (as well as health in the workplace) and all a little better.


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19 Sep 2009, 4:36 pm

I think people are slowly starting to wake up and realize that Obama is not the miracle worker they thought he was going to be.

I also think people set the bar way too high when electing a President, who doesn't call the shots anyway. I think people saw Obama as the "anti-Bush", rather than focused on his issues.

Regardless of peoples' views, Congress makes the laws, not the President.


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Last edited by Tim_Tex on 21 Sep 2009, 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.