A beautiful example of theological reasoning

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Ah yes. Imagination. Sometimes imagination can be great fun.

It is an attempted reductio ad absurdum, so of course he is going to manipulate the idea into something bizarre and absurd. The issue is whether it makes sense, and to some extent it does make sense. A major problems with theodicies is that they have to argue for the existence of evil in a manner that prevents the creation of more evil into an actual good thing, and some of them have problems with that.

To be truly compassionate, one has to be able to think of what would reasonate with the person one is trying to compansionate with. In your case, they had no clue. They wanted to help, but not strongly enough to figure you out first. I am sorry that you encountered such a situation.

Despite my faith, I don't talk about God in loss situations, unless I know that the person believes in God. But, even then, the reality is that losing someone you love just sucks, and all the positive spins anyone is going to put on it won't do a thing to change that. Anyone who doesn't "get" that hasn't experienced real loss. Until I had, I mostly held back when people were grieving, because I had no clue what to say. Sometimes the most compassionate thing to do is nothing.

As far as I'm concerned, what you shared is relevant to the discussion. I don't have anything to debate on it; nothing like that. But anyone who does want to be compassionate needs to know how you felt in that situation. Compassion can and does happen, but the process is unique to the people involved.

Seconded. Going after someone's beliefs while they're emotionally vulnerable is insensitive.

The reason I said it wasn't relevant is because I was trying to make a point that if we focus on others' suffering it distances us from our own suffering, thereby alleviating it. Whereas to seek compassion from others for our own suffering is only going to exacerbate it. Perhaps if the person who was suffering from loss had compassion for the person who didn't know how else to help them (because I doubt many people are actually good in those awkward situations) then he wouldn't have got so angry at the mention of heaven.

I also consider it to be dirty tactics when someone uses an experience of personal tragedy in a debate and I refuse to be manipulated by that sort of thing. My acknowledgment of that person's suffering was certainly not going to change the situation for them and they were using it to obscure the point I was trying to make. And it's very easy to do. For instance I could talk about my boyfriend (who most likely had AS) who injected himself with battery acid before slashing himself apart with a knife whilst running along a main road and then dying from the loss of blood. And I wanted to die with him. So there - we all suffer. But is it acceptable to bring these experiences up when we're trying to think rationally? I'm asking you.

Please excuse this unrelated submission but it seems a glitch has occurred which classifies me as a spammer to this site. I have tried to submit to the Oh Dear thread several times and been blocked on the basis I am a spammer - which is untrue. If this submission goes through I would appreciate some help in getting me, in effect, unbanned since I have given no cause for this action. I have contacted Alex to no effect at this point.

I have answered you in the WP discussion thread, Sand. Had you been blocked or banned you would not be able to post on any thread or read your PMs. What is your actual error message? (There is not one that says someone is a 'spammer'.)

Merle

I have answered both here and in the Avatar thread under Discussions
The message is
To prevent SPAM, your computer is specifically being denied access to this page. If you believe this is an error please send an email to alex@wrongplanet.net

I will continue any submissions on this problem under the Avatar thread in Discussions. I apologize for intruding.

There are some topics which are made very clear by inserting strong personal experience. To deny their relevance is to exclude very pointed illustrations that demonstrate very clearly very forceful arguments. The things involving compassion are very personal and that cannot be shoved aside. These are not theoretical issues, they deal with dynamic active life situations and personal illustration is definitely on target.

Precisely. Say that DW_a_mom saw me broke down along the road and pulled over. She seems the sort that would. If she then changed my tire for my spare, smiled and then drove off, when the problem was a dead battery, I am neither helped nor consoled. Her compassion would not resonate gratitude from me.

I admit would would feel mere bafflement in place of Sands anger, but the point is the same. The help that compassion effects needs a valid target.



DW, could you send someone with some booster cables?

No I disagree because there is a difference between effectively being able to assist someone and having compassion for them. Compassion is a mental attitude that may or may not be accompanied with an action. Yes it's ideal if a person can effectively assist another, but realistically that's not always possible. There are various obstacles for this - misunderstanding, lack of resources/knowledge/skill, distance, or situations that are just impossible to resolve. This is why I'm emphasising the importance of developing compassion because there can be no obstacle for it other than one's own self-interest.

The fact someone was trying to say something to alleviate a situation of suffering in the best way they knew how - indicates that they were in that moment thinking of the other person instead of themself. That to me is compassion plus an attempt to help. Effectively removing the suffering of another is an entirely different thing to having a compassionate concern and in many situations can't be done anyhow.

So the point I'm trying to make is that if we each extend our concern outwards to include others instead of our own self (whether we are currently suffering or not) then this will alleviate our own problems because our focus will be on others instead. I realise this is probably too profound for most people here so I'll just give up now. I hope everyone always says the right thing to you and they always carry the right spare car part that will suit your needs. Otherwise it could leave you angry or baffled.

There's a line from the prayer of St Francis of Assisi that says something about seeking to understand rather than being understood. If we are expecting to be helped by others it is going to make us very unfulfilled - just look at the great examples you guys have already provided.

If a person is compassionate he or she is very troubled by the suffering of someone else because that suffering is taken over, transferred and felt. The compassion is an internal feeling and if it is not implemented by an attempt to relieve the transferred suffering then it a useless bit of masochism. Compassion is only a worthy feeling when it leads to correct action. If the action is incorrect it is better not felt.

Disagree all you want. There needs to be a medium of exchange. If all I speak is proto-indo-european, when your turtle dies, it will be a +5 in the Oort cloud before I can transfer my compassion to you.

Those Edenic assurances offered to Sand were Cyrillic to a man that does not believe.

Woah this is definitely a good one here.

Sand I feel weird about people who surround themselves with the weak and suffering too. I almost wonder if as care givers they meight be the most dangourous. Catch 22. i am so empathetic to suffering that I take on ALL of the feelings of the one suffering and i could drop to my knees sick dizzy with trouble breathing if I experienced the worst suffering. I will help from a distance with leprosy, but If I am with one actually suffering, I do not forget how it felt to be them ( I read an emotional imprint from their eyes which translates right into my nervous system. I am deeply scarred from every death, serious injury or illness that I have bared witness to. I have only seen animals die up close though (thank god). Oh I have to tell just one from nearly a decade ago.
........A dark figure was laying on the side of the road. I pulled the Aerostar over alone. I walked around the front of the van, then beside it up the shoulder until I came to him. (Now i'm feeling the pain as i remember, its electric and edgy) A black coloured brindle bull mastif laying on his right side, black eyes wide with life and fear. An other car pulled up, the teen passenger asked if I hit him, I was sort of panicky and was asking them to drive over his head or something, shoot it do you have a rifle? just end it. Anyways they left us there. Nothing they could do, (A good thing). So just me and the dog.(Now the storys becoming difficult for me here) He was lifting his head and looking to me with fear and shock in his wide eyes. We were alone there together that night in cool darkness beside that road. (Recoverd thanx to tactical subject deviation). His legs were straight out rigid and alive, His head was clearly crushed on his right side, and likely on the side to me as well, I don't remember his face, just those eyes, (woah im choking up a bit here). So anyways he knew a person was there so he lifted his head looking back at me, then dropping it back into his red blood. (Oh no im just holding together..) So It was a big problem. he was heaving for air, making some good working boy noises, doing his best, and totally conscious, He his whole body heaved with his legs stiffly matching. (im crying). So anyways I had started to get my head together and calmi him down. I was telling him 'it's all better now. I'm here, it doesnt hurt. Its ok', And I started to pet his beatiful coat. Very gently and slowely, telling him that it was Ok, and he rested his head, "it's ok", his gasping slowed and feet began to rest, his gasping relaxed to gulping in "whaa..whaa..whaa.." with his whole body still working to get the air, and then as I went down his back an electric spasming followed my hand. and one last slow pet down his back 'Its Ok' his back was petting spasming skin and muscle. His breathing stopped. (this is just horrable. I don't like to share this story) And then (oh my God) screaming, from the darkness, a girl came running up the embankment from a house a ways back. Her screams shocked me but I was transfixed. A girl with glasses was beside me screaming, crying "Its him" and I can't remember if she said his name. Her dad came running up and after I explaned to them that he had just passed but I stayed with him and he died in peice. (im sure it was of little comfort). Anyways I took off, and wasn't all to hot after.

So Maybe I would be the best person to help individuals that suffer or are dying, but I care too much for my own good.
I would be ravaged by despair if this was a part of my routine. What If I eventually became numb to it? then my perspective would be a mask over reality, and once living in numb land who knows how long before a spring pops out of my brain.

So people who intentionally involve themselves in others Real suffering make me nervous. If they feel it as much as I do then they hide it so well, but are tore up inside. If they don't really feel it than its all good for them, but unfair to the one suffering. Not a clean place to set your apathy. So we need people who do these things (Nurses at retirement homes etc.) but they likely are less compassionate than they should be for the one sufferings sake. But knowing empathy personally I can guarantee that I couldn't handle it.

Whats a religios it's all better now pat on the back worth? Suffering comes in all shapes and sizes and I can only handle whats on my plate plus tax.

There's no need to find a reason for suffering, and figure out how to prevent it. It just must be.

How could one not be compassionate? Some aren't but I cant figure them out. Are they just dumb, or selfish or even evil?

One very important point that has not been brought up is that compassionate effort is not one sided. No doubt giving someone in trouble real help is a worthy effort but the giver is also much rewarded. It is not just a matter of relieving a pain felt in sympathy but also a tremendous ego boost for the giver that he or she can not only be effective but has something of real value to donate. That's where the dark side of aid comes in as many people seek out the helpless and needy in order to prove to themselves that they are competent in at least some ways. And that's the egg of my resentment when I am offered empty spiritual comfort which does nothing for me but props up the ego of the giver as if a significant donation had been made.I resent the ego that would nourish itself on my misery with phony offerings to me.

To go into it from a slightly different angle I resent religion to a large degree because it characterizes inevitable events as rewards and punishments. The old story of Adam and Eve presented humans with eternal life until they disobey God and were sentenced to eventually die. But death, disease, miseries in general, are not punishments and there is no reward to alleviate them. They are just natural happenings and many of them come with no warning and, to an extent, humans, not God, can alleviate some of them. But not death. And there is no real comfort for that, whatever religions may propose.

The opinions expressed in this thread are so far removed from my own that I've decided to no longer associate myself with this website. Also there seem to be massive jumps between the posts that don't seem to follow logically. I don't think I can make sense of others' comments and it certainly seems as though I myself don't make sense to others! It's confirmed what I already thought about my involvement in communication - whether it's with aspies or NTs - it still seems to be a waste of time!! This is due to my own faults and limitations.

So I'll go back to doing what I'm best at. I have appreciated some of the interactions - so thank you for that. And I definitely very much appreciate the existence of this website. I hope you all have a very good life - as much as possible! And it was nice to meet you. Bye.