Why peoples don't believe in Global Warming...

Page 3 of 7 [ 108 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

28 Feb 2010, 2:30 pm

ruveyn wrote:
You make my point. Since our predictions are non-linearly related to measurement of boundary conditions and initial conditions, long term prediction is impossible without infinite precision which can never be had.

True, but we can make qualitative predictions even if we don't have exact quantitative answers.

Quote:
In short, climate science (such as it is) is much less robust than the physics of elementary particles and fields. I will not risk what little prosperity or comfort I have in this world on any science less precise than quantum electrodynamics. When the climate "scientists" come up with something as good as quantum field theory or the standard model of particles and fields, then maybe I will listen to them.

Come back when you have a solution to the three-body problem and I'll take your criticisms more seriously.


_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH


ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 89
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

28 Feb 2010, 2:50 pm

Orwell wrote:
Come back when you have a solution to the three-body problem and I'll take your criticisms more seriously.


There are no closed form solutions, as you well know, but stable numerical solutions have existed for over 100 years. Now with super-duper computers calculating orbits with dozens of bodies is just a matter of hours or days of number crunching.

To put a point on it, the problem has been solved a long time. That is how they put unmanned vehicles into orbit around Saturn and Jupiter, each with umpteen moons.

ruveyn



xenon13
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,638

28 Feb 2010, 3:07 pm

People who know about history, particularly mediaeval history, may be less likely to believe in human caused warming because they aware of the Late Mediaeval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age. There is science suggesting that the goings on in the sun have more to do with climate change and that carbon dioxide is insufficient to significantly change climate.

That said, the so-called deniers will always have a problem in that many of these people are funded by vested interests and so this helps to discredit them to many eyes. There's a think a certain "pollution is bad" idea, that we will pay dearly for pumping smoke into the air, and also this idea that if there is a chance that perhaps there is human caused warming that it would be best not to take a chance. I think that there are many who think that a more moderate use of resources would be best.

As for this left-right business, Alexander Cockburn, who is a decidedly left wing writer, he does not believe in human caused warming and has posted articles on his Counterpunch website arguing that case.



Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 100
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

28 Feb 2010, 7:43 pm

xenon13 wrote:
People who know about history, particularly mediaeval history, may be less likely to believe in human caused warming because they aware of the Late Mediaeval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age. There is science suggesting that the goings on in the sun have more to do with climate change and that carbon dioxide is insufficient to significantly change climate.

That said, the so-called deniers will always have a problem in that many of these people are funded by vested interests and so this helps to discredit them to many eyes. There's a think a certain "pollution is bad" idea, that we will pay dearly for pumping smoke into the air, and also this idea that if there is a chance that perhaps there is human caused warming that it would be best not to take a chance. I think that there are many who think that a more moderate use of resources would be best.

As for this left-right business, Alexander Cockburn, who is a decidedly left wing writer, he does not believe in human caused warming and has posted articles on his Counterpunch website arguing that case.


Although I read and appreciate many of the articles of Counterpunch I am somewhat leery of Cockburn's enthusiasm for global warming dismissal. There seems to me to be too many large indications for it and the general scientific community cannot be totally ignored. Nevertheless, Freeman Dyson, a highly respected theoretical physicist and overwhelmingly informed and intelligent man also does not accept global warming and I highly respect his opinions.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 89
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

28 Feb 2010, 9:27 pm

Sand wrote:
Nevertheless, Freeman Dyson, a highly respected theoretical physicist and overwhelmingly informed and intelligent man also does not accept global warming and I highly respect his opinions.


Pay close attention to why Dyson rejects the IPCC approach. The IPCC approach is based exclusively on statistical correlations (with loads of adjustable parameters) and not physical causes. In addition the surrogates for the raw data (such as data from ice core samples) are cooked in such a way to produce the desired conclusion. Bottom line: there is climate science. There are only climate models.

ruveyn



roche12
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 9 Jun 2008
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 63

01 Mar 2010, 4:07 am

Mostly because you have idiots repeating idiots. By that I mean you take some science and give it to people that have political goals in mind and they give it to the media. So idiot politicians and idiot media screw up anything real.

It is easy to find examples of this. Anytime you have one side that says the sky is falling, and another saying everything is fine, the average person thinks both politicians are full of it, and the truth is in the middle somewhere. Al Gore and IPCC get treated like the greatest things ever but when you spend 2 seconds looking into them you find they are full of poop.

Gore likes to do things like blame the very powerful hurricanes like Katrina on global warming. By doing this he is showing that he hopes that the people he is talking to will be scared and ignore the fact that Katrina was a rather weak hurricane, most of the damage was caused by our wonderful infrastructure failing. He made a movie full of lies and halftruths, which doesn't help. He also says that global warming is the greatest threat to human life EVAR! Even nuclear war isn't as bad so says him. Of course he is ignoring the fact that global warming, although normally considered very bad, also normally isn't considered bad enough to kill all of us, just a lot of us. Nuclear war, we all die.

The IPCC report reads like something written by a politician. Lots of maybe, could be, probably, almost no going to, is. Also early on points out that 6 of 7 continents have experienced warming. pointing out that the one that didn't is Antarctica, and then shows pictures of the rest of the world and ignores Antarctica.

The IPCC and the chicken littlers also do something most of you probably haven't noticed. The exaggerate with color and it hurts them, and I don't think they even know they are doing it. Most people have seen a weather report and learn that color indicates temp. Reds and Yellows tend to be highs, Blues and Purples lows. Now for normal weather this is a range of 100 or more degrees. They use a similar color setup for the global climate maps, but those climate maps are only showing temp change from average, which is very little, 1 degree, normally less.

So when John Smith sees this climate map, he thinks there is no way there is that much of a difference. He is of course right, the climate change over last hundred years is so small that a person wouldn't even notice. He also does not understand there is a big difference between climate and weather.

There is also the issue PETA likes to point out. If we are serious about global warming why are we letting factory farms continue. They produce large amounts of Methane, which is a very powerful heater. So how serious can we be if we only worry about CO2?

I never argue for or against global warming, or climate change because if they are set on it you will lose. Here is a better way to go about it imo.


We know the world climate changes, with or without us. We know in the past it has been much colder and much warmer than it is now. We have no way of knowing how it will change things but we do know fertile land today could become a desert in 10 years. We have reason to believe that we are having an effect on the rate of change. We also know that our activities are filling the air, ground and water with pollutants that are killing us as well as other life. We can continue to argue over global warming and destroying our planet or we can ignore global warming and clean up our planet.

If we solve the pollution problem we have, we solve the global warming problem. It is possible using science to argue for, against and somewhere in between global warming. Climate is an insanely complicated system that we do not have a very good understanding of.

It is not possible to argue against the earth being polluted to the point it is no longer livable. The land, water and air is quickly becoming unsafe. Plants and animals all over the world are dieing off. We are 100% sure we did it, and 100% it will kill us if we don't fix it.

Personally I get upset by the fact that global warming gets all the attention it does while the rest of problems get ignored. For example, pick a pharmaceutical, and it probably has been found in drinking water and/or ground water in the US and Europe, 10 years ago. Now imagine how much bad stuff gets into water in places that don't have the rules the US and Europe have. I find it odd that at the current rate we will kill ourselves off by screwing up water long before the earth gets to hot and yet completely ignore it.

Here is a fun fact for you. Researchers have found fish is sun screen chemicals in them.

EDIT: I should have also pointed out that there is a large group of religious nutjobs that think the world is going to end soon and anything we do to destroy it will make that happen faster. These are the same nutjobs that support Israel and anything to cause trouble in the middle east. You will never win fighting that group of people, they want to destroy the planet.



fidelis
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jan 2010
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 567
Location: Somewhere in the deeper corners of my mind.

01 Mar 2010, 4:46 am

roche12 wrote:
The IPCC report reads like something written by a politician. Lots of maybe, could be, probably, almost no going to, is. Also early on points out that 6 of 7 continents have experienced warming. pointing out that the one that didn't is Antarctica, and then shows pictures of the rest of the world and ignores Antarctica.


I learn more on this website in a single day than at school in a month. Does anybody know why Antarctica feels like being a rebel? I am actually curious on this one.


_________________
I just realized that I couldn't possibly realize what I just realized.


roche12
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 9 Jun 2008
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 63

01 Mar 2010, 5:11 am

fidelis wrote:
roche12 wrote:
The IPCC report reads like something written by a politician. Lots of maybe, could be, probably, almost no going to, is. Also early on points out that 6 of 7 continents have experienced warming. pointing out that the one that didn't is Antarctica, and then shows pictures of the rest of the world and ignores Antarctica.


I learn more on this website in a single day than at school in a month. Does anybody know why Antarctica feels like being a rebel? I am actually curious on this one.


I haven't really looked into it much myself beyond the IPCC anyways. I do remember reading they thought it had something to do with ozone hole, which is above Antarctica.



Tollorin
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Jun 2009
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,178
Location: Sherbrooke, Québec, Canada

01 Mar 2010, 12:08 pm

Antartica is quite affected by Global Warming; The poles tend to be more affected by it.


_________________
Down with speculators!! !


PlatedDrake
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Aug 2009
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,365
Location: Piedmont Region, NC, USA

01 Mar 2010, 1:10 pm

Global Warming Hoax

I also read on another site (forgot the name, something like "somethingaweful.com") and it was found out that the experimentation for global warming was tested next to some sort of AC/Heating unit, so all the evidence was flubbed up from the beginning. "The ice caps are forming and splitting at a healthy rate," is what the real scientists are saying.



Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 100
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

01 Mar 2010, 1:25 pm

PlatedDrake wrote:
Global Warming Hoax

I also read on another site (forgot the name, something like "somethingaweful.com") and it was found out that the experimentation for global warming was tested next to some sort of AC/Heating unit, so all the evidence was flubbed up from the beginning. "The ice caps are forming and splitting at a healthy rate," is what the real scientists are saying.


And does his accont for the demise of the polar bears and that the northwest passage is now navigable?



Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 100
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

01 Mar 2010, 1:26 pm

PlatedDrake wrote:
Global Warming Hoax

I also read on another site (forgot the name, something like "somethingaweful.com") and it was found out that the experimentation for global warming was tested next to some sort of AC/Heating unit, so all the evidence was flubbed up from the beginning. "The ice caps are forming and splitting at a healthy rate," is what the real scientists are saying.


And does his accont for the demise of the polar bears and that the northwest passage is now navigable?



Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Arizona

01 Mar 2010, 3:16 pm

There are more polar bears today than there has ever been since their population has been recorded.



PLA
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 May 2007
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,929
Location: Sweden

01 Mar 2010, 5:03 pm

PlatedDrake wrote:
Global Warming Hoax

I also read on another site (forgot the name, something like "somethingaweful.com") and it was found out that the experimentation for global warming was tested next to some sort of AC/Heating unit, so all the evidence was flubbed up from the beginning. "The ice caps are forming and splitting at a healthy rate," is what the real scientists are saying.


If you find the thing about the AC/Heating unit, will you post it here?


_________________
I can make a statement true by placing it first in this signature.

"Everyone loves the dolphin. A bitter shark - emerging from it's cold depths - doesn't stand a chance." This is hyperbol.

"Run, Jump, Fall, Limp off, Try Harder."


xenon13
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Age: 50
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,638

01 Mar 2010, 10:51 pm

I read something that said that it was Margaret Thatcher who was the first western leader to adopt the human-caused global warming theory in order to retroactively justify shutting down the whole coal industry as revenge for the "Who governs Britain" fiasco of 1974 - when the Conservative government, during a coal miner strike, called an election with this slogan and they were defeated!



CloudWalker
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 711

02 Mar 2010, 1:51 am

fidelis wrote:
I learn more on this website in a single day than at school in a month. Does anybody know why Antarctica feels like being a rebel? I am actually curious on this one.

I don't think we really know if it's a rebel. We have very few stations in Antarctica, and we are using that to infer the temperature of that entire continent. The error margin is more than enough to cover any cooling/warming trend observed.

If you look at the raw data (unadjusted) of the nearby Australia, it has also been cooling for the past 15 years or so. For Australia, it's usually attribute to cloud, so it could be cloud in Antarctica too.